.45-70 w/gas check is it needed?

[roscoe]

I have never used a gas check on any bullets I've reloaded. I'm going to start reloading the .45-70 in my Shilo Sharps within the next couple of weeks. Reading lots of information here, I rarely see a gas check load for the .45-70. I will be using smokeless powder at first may some Blackhorn 209.

I know what the gas check is, but what does it do? Obviously it is not needed for the .45-70 but would it help?

[Clay M]

I only use a gas checked bullet if I am going to shoot higher velocity loads. Usually in my Ruger #1
For black powder velocities gas checks are not needed.

[marlinman93]

If your load is under about 1500 fps, a gas check isn't required. I know guys who use them on everything, but I don't use them on any of my old single shot rifles/calibers.

[Lead Fred]

If I had a Sharps, Id not use gas checks or lube grooved boolits

Paper patch them suckers and watch them fly

[Kraschenbirn]

Shouldn't be any need for GCs in that Shiloh Sharps. Even with modern steels, it's still a black-powder era design and reloads kept to appropriate BP pressure levels. I've put an awful lot of bare-botton RCBS .45-405 FPs...a GC design...downrange using both BP and smokeless without a single complaint from anything I hit.

Bill

[country gent]

In most of the BPCR matches gas checks arnt llowed so dependingon your uses of this rifle load you may not want to use them. In my 45-70 and 45-90 I use bullets cast from 20-1 alloy ( 20 parts lead to one part tinno antimony added ) and get very good results with Black Powder loads in the 1200 fps range. With smokeless duplicationloads in the same velocity range this should work well also. You want the bullet to obtrate and seal the bore to hard of an alloy and that dosnt happen.

[Hickok]

My thoughts and experience on the 45/70.

Loads in 1300-1500fps region with boollits weighing 400+ gr are at the lower limit of my pain threshold with a Marlin 45/70 weighing about 7.5 pounds, when shooting 40-50 rounds at a session, and at these velocities, no gas check is needed.

Any load I have tried over this speed/weight combination, and the misery quickly overcomes the joy of shooting the rifle.

A .45/70 400+ gr boolit going 1300-1500 fps will lay low anything that's breaths in North America, if placed in the right area, and at the proper range. Shoot twice if needed, three times to be sure.

[Clay M]

The 405 gr bullets are bruisers for sure. I have shot thousands of them over the years.
Now I mostly shoot 350-360 gr bullets in my lever guns and my #1. I have good results with the Saeco #017 Mold.
I run them with a moderate load of Rel 7 .I believe they are running about 1750 fps.
Accuracy is excellent in the Ruger #1. I do use a gas check and Carnauba Red lube.
The load is comfortable to shoot off the bench. Yes I can tell a great deal of difference between the recoil of the 350 and the 400 grain bullets. I really like the 350's and don't care too much for the 300's
For smokeless loads in my Shiloh Sharps I use the 400 gr bullet with a load of 5744 at about 1200fps.
Great accuracy and easy on the shoulder.

[MT Chambers]

If using HV loadings then yes use a gc mold and use a GC, for BP vel. loadings I would not use a gas check design (or a gc). I'm a firm believer in using gcs on gc molds.

[Clay M]

I will have to admit ,I have never shot a gas check design bullet without a gas check regardless of the velocity.
So I have no opinion about the performance.
I have enough plain base molds for the .45/70.

[Chill Wills]

I'm going to start reloading the .45-70 in my Shilo Sharps within the next couple of weeks. ?

You can shoot GC bullet designs with out the GC and in most cases do well at lower velocity BUT you can't spell Shiloh Sharps with out putting the H on the end of Shiloh.


Hey! Enjoy your Shiloh! They are all about fun shooting!

[griffiga]

I agree with Marlinman93. I have several .45-70's from original trapdoors, Rolling blocks to modern Marlins and Repro Sharps. Especially in the originals, I keep the velocity down to original black powder loading even though I may use smokeless powder sometimes. As these velocities were 1100-1300 fps, plain based bullets are best. I do load some gas checks on some of the 300 grain cast I have for use in my Marlin 1895. I push these to around 1700 fps and the gas check keeps lead from the base of the bullets liquefying and coating the bore of you rifle.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

That is all good advice on not needing gas-checks at moderate velocities. With most rifles that probably means up to about 1500ft./sec., although individual rifles and alloys might bring it a little lower. If you have to use an oversize bullet, or size a bullet down by much, the use of a gas-check reduces the chances of irregular finning, but for a .45-70 your mould is likely to be of the right diameter.

Between 1500 (probably) and 1900 or so, gas-checks begin to have a lot of point for avoiding leading. That doesn't mean there is no other way around that problem. Many of the old-time shooters used a wax disc or greased wad, both between two discs of card, and this worked pretty well.

[Scharfschuetze]

I'll mirror the advice above and don't have much new to add.

I've been shooting, casting and loading for the 45/70 for more years than I care to remember with both black powder and smokeless and I've never used a gas check. Most of my shooting is with original Trapdoor Springfields, although I have a couple of replica Trapdoors and a Marlin 1895 too. My loads generally mimic the Frankford Arsenal loads for both the cavalry load and the infantry load, although I have souped up the Marlin and a previously owned Browning 1895 BPCR rifle to shoulder bruising levels. I've never used a gas check in any of the loads and other than the Browning 1895 BPCR I've never had any trouble with leading.

My favorite moulds are the Lyman 457193 and the Lee 405 grain design which is a near duplicate of the FA boolit used by the US Army. I use a 1 to 20 alloy for the original rifles and almost anything that casts well in the replica Trapdoors and Marlin.

For a short cut if you don't have a lot of lead to use or time to cast, is the Oregon Trail 405 grain BBFP boolit. It shoots very well in modern barrels like your Shiloh (with the "h" ) and will achieve velocities up to 1,600 without leading due to its very hard alloy.

[johnson1942]

i agree, paperpatch that gun. i use blackhorn 209 in both of my 45/70/s and wouldnt shoot anything but paperpatched bullets in it. no muss no fuss, dead on every shot.

[EDG]

Gas checks are not needed but they will not hurt anything if that is the only mold you have. If you have the desire to go fast they might be useful.
I have never had very good accuracy with plain based 300 gr bullets but the 300 grn RCBS gas check bullet is very accurate.
Mostly I shoot heavier plain base bullets and they work fine too, but I never go very much faster than 1300 fps.

[Dogbone13]

I agree with Marlinman93. I have several .45-70's from original trapdoors, Rolling blocks to modern Marlins and Repro Sharps. Especially in the originals, I keep the velocity down to original black powder loading even though I may use smokeless powder sometimes. As these velocities were 1100-1300 fps, plain based bullets are best. I do load some gas checks on some of the 300 grain cast I have for use in my Marlin 1895. I push these to around 1700 fps and the gas check keeps lead from the base of the bullets liquefying and coating the bore of you rifle.

Have a Pedersoli Remington Rolling Block in 45-70. Looking for but cannot find published load data for 405 gr cast boolits with gas checks, either purchased that way or for adding gas checks to cast boolits. Can you point me in the right direction?

[MT Chambers]

Use the same data as plain base bullets.

[sharps4590]

What Mt said.

What a gas check does is protect the base of the bullet from the hot powder gases, much the same as the card wad we use over BP. The GC also helps prevent leading. At lower, BP type velocities or using BP with a card wad a gas check isn't needed on a GC design bullet. Accuracy won't be effected, at least not in my experience with Shiloh Sharps, Cody Rifle Works Ballards, Haenel/Aydt Schuetzen rifles and my Jeffrey Rook rifle. As velocities rise with the use of smokeless powders I will install the gas check. In a Sharps I wouldn't waste my time with bullets less than 405-420 grs. Mostly I shoot 450-480 gr. bullets for hunting and 500-520 for target work, all under either Schuetzen Ffg or Old Eynsford Ffg.