Damage to base coating from gunpowder???

[41mag]

I have tried and tried to formulate something with the search feature, that might bring up an already posted discussion on the effects of gunpowder on the coating, but I found nothing pertaining to it.

I have seen it somewhere posted a few powders which "might" damage the base of a coated bullet, ie.- eating the coating off due to the solvent entrained in the powder.

I know there are some powders which WILL damage the hoppers on powder measures as well, with Bullseye being one of them and AA-7 as well, if left to sit for a while.

I guess my main issue is that I am not sure which powder to load with that I can be sure of the integrity of the coated bases of my boolits. If anyone has an idea I sure would love to hear it before I load up a big ol batch of 9mm, 10mm, 41 & 44 mags, 45 Colt and 45 ACP's.

I would love to know if anyone has experience with this issue and if so which powders might be the biggest culprit(s). I sure do hate to have to pour up little batches of powder and toss in a bullet with each coating on it then wait to see if it gets eaten off. That said, if that is the only way I guess it will have to do.

Is this a real issue that I should even be concerned with at all? My thought is not so much that it will, or might possibly, cause an issue with the bullet, but that it might cause an unfriendly reaction with the powder causing squibs or hangfires.

What to yall think?

[ccjcc81]

I'd like to know this as well. I initially planned to load a bunch of PC bullets for stockpiling, but there's no data about how long they'll last. I'll take speculation from people who know more about this stuff.

[igolfat8]

I have recovered several PC boolits from the berm and none had any deterioration to the bases. I use both hot and slow powders: BE, TG, Clays, WAC, HS6, N320 & PP. I've also noticed that all of the rifling grooves were quite prominent but did not expose bare lead.

[41mag]

I have recovered several PC boolits from the berm and none had any deterioration to the bases.

As have I, but most of those were loaded and shot within a couple of days to a week or so after being coated. My main concern is the exposure to the solvents in the powder simply being enough to melt the coating as it does a powder hopper, and possibly messing up the charge to the point that it becomes possibly dangerous.

Since around Sept. of last year I have loaded and shot upwards of 3K in just 9mm, with about a third of those being coated, and loaded over Bullseye. That said though, and like mentioned above, I loaded them say between Wed and Fri. and shot them on the weekend in batches of fifty or a hundred.

I also just purchased my wife a new 9mm and am looking to start loading larger batches for us to shoot. The oldest grandson now 14 has also found he REALLY likes her pistol as well, and shoots it as good or better than most adults. So when I load a bigger batch, they will most likely sit for longer periods of time between the loading and actual shooting, since he lives a good 3hrs away.

I simply want to be as cautious as I can to avoid any mishaps with those two, who being less experienced, might not catch a squib load do to powder deterioration that possibly manages to eject the case but leaves the bullet stuck in the barrel.

[bangerjim]

I and several other long-time coaters have done research on this and posted info several times over the past year or so.

The only powder I have found that slightly attacks PC (HF and Smoke's) is Titegroup. Of all the 5 powders I tested, only TG slightly dissolved/softened the base coating.

Remember, the base coating does nothing for you. BBDT just happens to coat the bottom due to how it is done. I have ESPC'd thousands of boolits that gives bare bases and no problems. Does you old grease offer any base protection? I think not. Why should you think PC would?????

Is it something to concern yourself with? Absolutely NO. The few grains (mabe 10 pieces) of TG that stuck to the base would cause no problems. This was after 1 year of storage nose down. And those pieces would burn off anyway when the cart was fired.

In the words of Vito....."Forget-about-it".

If that causes you to loose sleep, just store your boolits nose up. And shoot them within a few months. But I see absloutely NO reason to worry about anything at all.

bangerjim

[Echd]

The fact that many j-words have exposed lead bases should assuage any fears that a bare base causes issues. Much less a coated one.

[Forrest r]

Not my picture but it mirrors my findings as well.

[IMG][/IMG]

I've tested other powders known for their high nitroglycerin content (bullseye/power pistol) and didn't have any issues/problems. There's just something about titegroup and plastics. The only time I've ever seen any discoloration on a fired bullets base was when I pc'd some bullets and had the oven/heat too low. The pc didn't get a complete cure, a picture of the bullets tops (bright red) and the dis-colored bases.

[IMG][/IMG]

I've been pc'ing bullet for a couple of years now and that's the 1st time I've ever seen that happen. Those bullets were shot with clays powder. I use clays in allot of different loads and have recovered hundreds of bullets shot with clays and never saw anything like those bases before. Didn't affect accuracy any, no weird smell, nothing, nada. After seeing the dis-colored bases I went home and checked the oven setting, sure enough I bumped it and it was set lower than I normally run it to pc bullets.

Don't know if any of this helped answer the op's question.

[41mag]

I appreciate the post and answers to my question. I am/was not concerned with the bare bases at all having shot who knows how many plain FB designs in different calibers over the past half dozen years.

I was more concerned with the effects of the powder coating melting from the gunpowder, and possibly causing an issue that I might not catch while my wife or grandson were doing the shooting.

You can tell people what to look for and how things SHOULD be when it goes bang, but to those of less experience, unless they actually see the bullet hit the target, it might still go bang but leave one stuck in the barrel. Granted there are two dozen other reasons for this to happen, but I try to eliminate them all.

Just being overly cautious here, nothing more. I am sort of fond of all persons involved.

[dahermit]

Does you old grease offer any base protection? I think not. Why should you think PC would?????

It may not be just a matter of protecting the base. Many indoor ranges prohibit traditional cast lead bullet handloads because of concerns about airborne lead. A cast lead bullet completely encased in a polymer coating (powder coated), may just curtail the lead that they worry about in the air, within an enclosed facility. When it comes to jacketed bullets with bases open to the effects of combustion, they may still emit lead when fired, albeit less than a bare cast lead bullet. Just speculating, no proof but certainly not jumping to any conclusion.

[dahermit]

I was more concerned with the effects of the powder coating melting from the gunpowder, and possibly causing an issue that I might not catch while my wife or grandson were doing the shooting.

There may be some legitimate concern over the possibility of the powder coated bases deteriorating the powder in the cartridge with prolonged storage. "Skeeter" Skelton published a story in the sixties in Shooting Times about powder left in a powder hopper of his measure deteriorating the powder to the point were squib loads resulted ("Shooting Times"- "Cow Killer Loads" by Skeeter Skelton), that were, according to him, unable to penetrate the skull of a cow he was called upon to shoot. One of the things Skelton noted was that granules of powder were becoming embedded into the plastic of the hopper (same observation of powder sticking to the bases of bullets). A few kernels of powder stuck to the bottom of a powder coated bullet is not the main concern...the possibility of squib or dud loads are. More empirical data needs be collected from shooters concerning powder coated bullets subjected to long-term storage before summarily dismissing the issue.

[tjones]

Forest R right on point. Excellent ideas and tests and results. Very informative! -tj

[popper]

I've stored 308W PC'd over a year and they work fine. Same with 40SW (231/hp38). Just load & go. The only possible problem (which we haven't seen yet) would be powder deterioration from PC, not the other way. Most 'formed' plastics will outgas, baked ones don't. Styrene is one of the worst and is used a lot. Plexiglass is another. The coatings we (normally/uS sourced) use are industrial grade and have been tested for VOC/outgassing.

[Spector]

An aluminum PB pop can gas check applied after powder coating should be a workable alternative solution with the offending smokeless powders.........Mike

[bangerjim]

As I (and Forrest r) clearly stated: It is the powder not the PC! TiteGroup is the only one I have found that lightly attacks the PC base. The others (Clays, ETR7, Am Select, Red Dot, Trail Boss) did not bother it at all over a year in storage nose down at 55-90°F and AZ low humidity.

TG does attack various alloys of plastics and will melt them over time. Proven by all the stories of loading press tubes being melted! TG has a unique smell when you open the bottle. I am not getting into the chemistry of powders, just saying do not use it if you are up-tight with a little sticking to the coated base of BBDT boolits.

I certainly would not concern myself with any degradation in performance or any feared safety situations shooting them. It will still burn!

banger

[flyingmonkey35]

Interesting.

From my research on what it takes to remove properly cured powder coat.

As with most plastic's. It takes lot to get it to come off. Unless you are planning on storing loaded ammo for 20+ years in a wet humid environment with high temps. I wouldn't be to concerned.

I'd be more worried about the powder then anything else.

Proper storage conditions are your biggest worry.

As that is what will change the chemical compound in your powder to make it corrosive and useless.

[Motor]

See the update I posted which BTW was a total coincidence. I just happened to be priming some brass tonight and saw my test samples sitting on the shelf and decided to check them out and post an update.

Motor

[41mag]

Again I thank you all for your post. Like I mentioned I simply wanted to know if there have been any issues. I am very fond of my family members who shoot the rounds that I load and I take great care in making sure they are as safe as I can make them.

I do not know why the searches I tried did not come up with the post you mentioned Motor, but if it had, I probably would not have posted mine. It pretty much answered the question I had.

Like I said I unfortunately know from experience what some powders do to the plastic hopper on a measure, and it doesn't take months to do it either.

I will now happily go back to coating, loading, and shooting.

[Forrest r]

See the update I posted which BTW was a total coincidence. I just happened to be priming some brass tonight and saw my test samples sitting on the shelf and decided to check them out and post an update.

Motor

Thank you for the update motor, I quit testing a year ago. Never had a problem with shotgun shells sitting for decades. But it's always good to be be cautious when dealing with a new product.

[fingers284]

Interesting...I have never heard of gun powder effecting the measure hopper before, must not apply to a Dillon hopper, I just checked the one I have had a continuous supply of TiteG in for going on 9 or 10 yrs and shows no degradation to hopper or internal baffle.

[bangerjim]

TG will attach several alloys of plastics. #2 white is one. I stored some TG in a 1# WHITE #2 HDPE bottle I had and it turned the inside dark where the powder was and it tended to stick to that area a little more.

Polysolfone and polystrene are other plastics that it can attack. And obviously certain formulations of PC.

Just be careful and do not leave TG in anything plastic but it's original black #2 HDPE (high density polyethylene) bottle and you will be OK.

bangerjim