Howa

[joeb33050]

I want a new 308 CB rifle, choice is Savage or Remington 700. But have heard about Howa. Has anyone any experience with Howa, CBs and 308??
Thanks;
joe b.

[Bass Ackward]

I want a new 308 CB rifle, choice is Savage or Remington 700. But have heard about Howa. Has anyone any experience with Howa, CBs and 308??
Thanks;
joe b.

Joe,

Closest thing to a tricked out bench gun in quality you will ever buy. And tighter tollerances than some of those. Just like blue printing an action.

Now did I say that they shot better than either of the others? No. I just like to know that a gun is made right. It improves the odds of getting a good one in my mind.

[StarMetal]

Bass

Apparently Savage makes a rifle right because ALOT of them sure as hell shoot GOOD.

Joe

[9.3X62AL]

My Howa experience was exactly one, in 338 Win Mag. Of the three rifles I've had in this caliber, it was the most accurate example. I would buy another without hesitation.

[carpetman]

joeb33050---Why do you want a bolt action .308? The beauty of the .308 is that the short cartridge will work better in non bolt guns. If getting bolt,why not go with 30-06?

[Bass Ackward]

Bass

Apparently Savage makes a rifle right because ALOT of them sure as hell shoot GOOD.

Joe

Joe,

Sure. A Ford goes just as fast as a Mercedes too. But 20 years later, one is on the scrap heap and the other is considered a classic. The gamble Savage takes is that you won't shoot more than a box of shells through them a year. And most people don't.

[StarMetal]

Bass,

That's a line of crap. You trying to say one, that Savage's stainless barrels are an inferior stainless to everyone else's, and two, you saying that Savage doesn't think their stainless heavy barreled varmint rifle will get shot much? For that matter I don't think any company thinks their big game rifles will be shot all that much...not being in a war or nothing you know. I surely doubt the way Savage does their metal work on their rifles that they aren't going to hold up. I'm using stainless as an example here, we can say chromemoly too for that matter. We (the cast forum) surely won't shoot the rifling out of any manufacturers rifles using cast. A barrel on anyone's rifle only has a certain life span, and that barrel's life span is one hell of alot shorter time then the actions or rest of the rifle.

Joe

[Bret4207]

( Psssst, hey- lets sit back and watch the fur fly on this one! My moneys on BA)

[StarMetal]

Naughty naughty naught Tpr Bret...imagine, trying to stir up a cat fight. I'm just yankin Bass's chain, hell we're pardners, even grew up in the same neck of the woods.

Hey Bass...don't fall for it.

Joe

[Bass Ackward]

Naughty naughty naught Tpr Bret...imagine, trying to stir up a cat fight. I'm just yankin Bass's chain, hell we're pardners, even grew up in the same neck of the woods.

Hey Bass...don't fall for it.

Joe

Joe,

Savage barrel stainless can be turned in a lathe with a 2 penny nail. It's not even heat treated very well. A Howa is much better steel and heat treated to the point that it is considerably tougher. You buy what you want, I mean, why do you think I got my two Savages? One was a premium model stainless heavy in 06 that was chambered backwards to button travel. The second was a 270 that the case wobbled when rolled down a plate of glass. Both misfits are something else now.

All you have to do is look at the two companies. One is concerned about profits and cuts any corners to get them. Savage fiberglass stocks were last reported to cost them $6.00. If they do that, how much do you think they pay for barrels?

[StarMetal]

Bass,

How would you know what steel and heat treatment is used in either Savage or Howa or any gun manufacturer for that matter, you personal friends with the engineer staff of all the manufacturers.

Get serious, you aren't turning any rifle barrel with a two penny nail and I know you used that as an exaggeration.

You can get lemons from any gun manufacturer and yes two in a row. They all chop them out for profit. I sincerely doubt Howa is not making firearms for a profit. According to you the only barrel in the world isn't a factory barrel, it has to come from one of the top barrel makers in the world.

Face it, two gun manufacturer that mass produce rifle stand out for accuracy although the Green one might have slipped some recently and that's Remington and Savage.

Like I said a gun rag did an article on a heavy barrel varminter from Howa and I forget which caliber it was on, either 223 or 243 and the thing shot for **** and the author, who we think are always bound not to say anything bad about a rifle they test, said it sure wasn't accurate enough for varmint hunting. Was it one of their lemons?...or did that quality steel, quality blueprinting, and quality bedding just not stand up to the lowly two penny nail Mattel stocked Savage?

Joe

[felix]

I guess if I were a quality control person in a barrel operation and saw that the grain left by the button was backwards for boolit travel, and the muzzle end was choked, I'd raise Cain and Abel for a reenactment. If Cain won, then the barrel is a keeper; if not, the the barrel gets trashed. Most folks shooting barrels like this couldn't tell the difference in THEIR personal accuracy anyway. Clearly, barrels for the BR game are supposed to be more throughly checked, but if a barrel was NOT shot-in by the final vendor in line, that barrel could be just as chancy as a normal factory barrel coming from anyone. You can bet that a GREAT barrel will be sent to a BR shooter of obvious repute, and no questions asked by the quality control person for bean counter approval. A barrel shoots, or it doesn't, and this can be deciphered in 5 shots. That's why a "worn out" barrel off of a winning season gun will be the cat's meow for us cast shooters. You can take that to the bank! ... felix

[joeb33050]

308 vs 30/06 because the case is smaller = maybe more accurate.
When trying to get a Savage 12BVSS in 223 to shoot lead, I watched the throat dimensions move forward in 3000 cast loads. Total 30 jacketed bullets shot with 5/8" 5 shot 100 yard accuracy. Not lead though.
Also got 3-4 comments that Savage barrels will wear, move throat forward and lose accuracy quickly.
I don't know where that leaves us on the Howa-will a 308 shoot lead accurately?
Thanks;
joe b.
I

[Bass Ackward]

308 vs 30/06 because the case is smaller = maybe more accurate.
When trying to get a Savage 12BVSS in 223 to shoot lead, I watched the throat dimensions move forward in 3000 cast loads. Total 30 jacketed bullets shot with 5/8" 5 shot 100 yard accuracy. Not lead though.
Also got 3-4 comments that Savage barrels will wear, move throat forward and lose accuracy quickly.
I don't know where that leaves us on the Howa-will a 308 shoot lead accurately?
Thanks;
joe b.
I

JoeB,

Glad you posted that. I have seen Savages totally shot out with just 800 rounds of jacketed for standard caliber cartridges. 300 for the burners. And you did it with cast.

In truth, all I have personal experience with cast is my wife's sporter in 06. That rifle has shot any cast bullet that you simply support with the lands. Factory designs to customs made for my Remington. And it is not finicky. In fact I came closer to the 100,000 RPM contest with her gun then my Remington. Many 10 shot groups so far under an inch that I would lose more credibility than I already have if I said.

If you didn't get the Howa though, Gander Mountain has a special run of Remington 700, single shots that are in nice thumbholes. Would be a great comp gun in factory class.


Joe,

Well there you are. I never knew anyone who did it with cast. I said you can turn Savage stainless with a 2 penny nail because I saw it done. Anyone that has ever worked with steel can tell you what's in it the first time they hit it. Period. So whether it's the quality of the steel or heat treatment, Savage has neither.

Over the years we have sold more Howa's under Colt, Raptor, and then Howa names than Savage by 10 to 1. And we never got a single one back for other than trigger adjustments or refinishing. And poeple always bring in targets bragging on what they did. No other manufacturer does that happen to. That just happens to be how life is here. Accept it or not.

And as to some gun rag testor. Did he know or take the time to break in the Howa? Make take 200 rounds. So that isn't accuracy right out of the box. But I don't want that. I want accuracy 10 years from now. Many of these type writter boys couldn't poor water out of a boot if the directions were written on the heal. The reason Savage claims most accurate right out of the box is because they are the best they will ever be. Savages can and do shoot now, don't let anyone kid ya. But only for awhile.

[Oldfeller]

joeb33050

Rifles will either shoot a particular well-fitted lead bullet, or they won't. Some rifles are just stubborn that way. All you can do is make sure the lead slug fits the throat acceptably and seats well upon loading.

There are two schools on this fit up, slip fitters and throat choakers. Slip fitters size to bore plus a trifle and trust a neck sized only fired in the chamber case to point the butt end of the bullet correctly. This school's bane is a chamber that is cut slightly off center to the bore (they must mark their cases and install them the same way each time to get their trick to work).

Throat chokers fill the throat up with carefully fitted lead and crush load the lead slug so forcefully that the installed bullet tells the case neck where to be. This schools bane is that NO TWO RIFLES HAVE THE EXACT SAME THROAT and crush loading tends to pull bullets out of the case if the round is unloaded.

(moderate throat chokers like to be able to unload their bullets and don't crush so hard accordingly)

Our big commercial mold makers are of a third school, the "we don't want any complaints or trouble". They shrink noses and throat fit-up points to make sure it goes freely into any possible variant of rifle that could possibly load that bullet.

An example of this sort of thinking is LEE in the 8x56 Steyr bullet. All Steyr rifles taken as reparations after WW1 were rebored (by the original arsenal) to .330-.331 bore wall diameter to clean up the corrosive ammo damage from decades of hard use. Everybody except Italy that is, so a very few guns do exist that are at the original .329" diameter. Very damn few.

Yet if you go to buy a jacketed bullet (or a LEE mold and sizer) you get stuck with a .329" bullet that 1) slops in the throat and 2) slops going down the bore. Shoots lousy, but will give LEE no pulled bullet complaints nor any lawsuits. (folks who want more accuracy shoot LEE's .338" slug)

So, will a Howa shoot a lead .308 diameter bullet accurately? Sure, at least one of the many lead .308 bullet styles at some moderate velocity. Will it shoot as many as accurately as a Savage? Nope.

Savages didn't get that rep as "good shooters" by accident, likely they will do marginally better than a Howa.

But they will always look like a Savage.

Oldfeller

[StarMetal]

I talked to Savage today. I inquired about what their stainless barrels are made from, for centerfire rifles, not the their new smokeless powder muzzler loader, as that is a proprietory steel. Savages stainless barrels are made from 416 martensitic stainless steel. John in case you don't know what martensitic steel is, it is a steel in which can be hardened by heat treating like regular Carbon steels. 416 stainless is more accurately described as a "free machining, rust resistant" steel having a high Chrome content, around 10%, but with sulphur added to give it good machining qualitieis. Notice that "good machining qualities". Is this perhaps what you noticed when you erronously stated that it could be machined with a two penny nail? Anyways it is widely considered that stainless barrels will have a longer life and are more accurate than Chrome Moly barrels. If stainless barrels are "shot in" using the prescribed procedure, the barrel aquires a burnishing which almost eliminates fouling, so making stainless barrels very easy to clean.

The tensile strength of the steel is measured as the force required to break a rod of steel having a one inch cross sectional area by pulling it from its ends. The tensile strengths of steels used for making barrels should exceed 100,000 lb per square inch giving at least a factor of two safety margin over the chamber pressures experienced during firing. But the impact strength of the steel is probably even more important, this being the ability of the steel to withstand a sharp knock without breaking. Generally speaking, the tensile strength of a steel can be increased by hardening it. But as the hardness is increased, so the steel becomes more brittle and it becomes more susceptible to fracturing from a hard knock or sharp impact - or setting off a small explosion inside a tube of the stuff! A trade off must therefore be made of tensile strength against impact strength and for barrel steel the resultant hardness settled on is usually between 25 and 32 on the Rockwell C scale.

Savage also said they have tested regular production barrels to over 5000 rounds to see the wear charactoristics.

I just got off the phone with Shilen. He wasn't reluctant to make statement knowing I'd put them on the forum. He said as I started questioning him "Is this an argument going on?". I said yes. About the turning of a Savage stainless barrel with a two penny nail, he said he'd like to see that. He also said that he sincerely doubts that you will shoot a Savage out in 800 rounds. He went on to ask what the fellow that made statement describes as shot out? He also doubted that shooting 3000 cast bullets throught a 223 Savage would move the throat forward. Brownells gunsmith techs said the same things...yeah I talked to them too. They both agreed that the only way that could happen was to have contaminated lead alloy with some kind of abrasive in it, and possibly by not cleaning the rifle at all, but still doubted it. Now they said you could do it with lapping rounds. Shilen went on to say that Bass is full of it (his words too) that if he thinks button rifling isn't that good, that he named a fellow that holds more benchrest records with a button rifled barrel. He didn't state that it was Shilen barrel, just that it was buttoned rifled. Both of the stated that for the money and a factory rifle, Savage was a hell of a deal. Shilen particulary mentioned that they like the Savage Accu-Trigger.

Joe

[Jumptrap]

Joe,

I am really beginning to wonder just how far you will go to grind an axe.

When I am right and can't convince another party, I just walk. But it seems you will go to any length to prove YOU are right. In the end what does it matter? Lighten up, it's okay to just agree to disagree.

[David R]

This is cool

I had a 7 mm Mag Savage 110. After a bunch of rounds, when cleaning the gun I could feel the brush dragging for the first few inches after the chamber. After a bunch more probably around 2,000 HOT jacketed, I could feel the roughness half way up the barrel. I sold the gun.

Never shot a Howa.

Thanks for the entertainment. I don't watch much TV.

David

[Oldfeller]

David R,

You freely admit to eroding the throat of a Savage 7 Mag to some goodly degree. How did it shoot in the first 500, second 500, third 500, 4th 500 etc etc. My curiosity is that you have true first hand personal knowledge of the progressive effects of long term throat erosion and would you be willing to share with the group?

Any details would be good, what powder you used, how many grains, which bullets did you use, what kinds of speeds did you get and what kind of accuracy did you get as you progressed along to total destruction?

I know 7 mags eat throats (well known -- widely acknowledged). What is not clearly known is the quantatative effects of such erosion on fps speed and accuracy.

I wonder what the 7mm Ultra boys get for barrel life .....

Oldfeller

[StarMetal]

David,

There's a barrel break in procedure reccomended by Savage on their website. Did you know this? Did you follow a break in procedure? With all the crud after shooting (like powder residue, carbon, and jacket fouling) I'd expect some roughness pushing a cleaning brush through the bore after shooting. Just as Oldfeller askes I'd be curious as to what the answers are to his questions. I bet if you done the same exact thing in the same sequence, using the same ammo, that any other brand rifle would have had a roughness too.

Joe