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Thread: Why powder coat?

  1. #61
    Boolit Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Coating is coating like East is to West. It's a jacket first and foremost and held at the molecular level, the strongest bond there is.
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  2. #62
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by noisewaterphd View Post

    ......then it is likely due to rising copper costs, and it sounds like maybe they have figured out the mass production end of it.

    I don't think Federal is powder coating, but coating is coating.
    Copper is nearing a five year low. And still sliding! -tj

  3. #63
    Vendor Sponsor Handloader109's Avatar
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    Wow, I missed this thread the first time out I guess.... But I am kind of ashamed..... I've only been here a short while, learned how to most importantly cast my own bullets.... Then I have learned more about different techniques used. Not just coatings but shooting and guns in general. I DO powder coat. And in reading the initial post, I had, call it concerns about the claims.... I do not have a rest, I am not the best shot, but I do know that my cheap Barnes bullets tend, TEND, to be more accurate than any of my cast and pcd bullets. Not a lot, but some. It really doesn't matter to me it is good enough, I'm hitting small enough area at a fairly decent distance (30 to 40 feet) that I could use as self defense ammo..... Good enough for me. I do like not having a large alox puff floating around, but altered alox, (bll) works good also. I've had a couple of issues with pc, one is that when tumbled, the coating does thicken the nose. I have had what I'd call serious issue with feeding all of my various 9mm with pc bullets. Nose too long, and I have to carefully reduce oal to compensate. And tumbling is not an exact manufacturing method, my bullets vary in coated thickness (yes I tap) I'd do like pc, but it is just a method. Yes my velocity does go up slightly too. I have used coated and lubed in my glock and PPQ with no issues, if you cast good, you can shoot with out leading.... I don't buy the claim that pc combines with the lead at a molecular level.... The thermoset pc does link with itself, but it isn't linking with the metal... Ain't happening. (Oh, I'm a Che by degree with almost 20 yes of working with various types of thermoset resins and molding compounds.) but I'm not an expert in pc.


    Back to I'm ashamed.... I've never seen anyone, nor a group of people holler troll about a member here, until this post. And one of them being a vendor that sells powder coating supplies. I really don't think he was trolling at all, and to make that claim is very objectionable to me.

    We have very few facts about casting and the overall "science" of shooting..... There are a LOT OF THEORIES" but almost all are unproven....
    I think open apologies to noisewaterphd is warranted and needed by several members That posted earlier.....
    Just my opinion, but it is mine to make.

  4. #64
    Boolit Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Gosh how I hate to see someone constantly pasting from Wikipedia on every little thing…but…in this instance I have to do it myself as I could not explain this 'molecular bonding' any better than this..
    Covalent bond

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    "Covalent" redirects here. For other uses, see Covalent (disambiguation).

    A covalent bond forming H2 (right) where two hydrogen atoms share the two electrons

    A covalent bond is a chemical bond that involves the sharing of electron pairs between atoms. These electron pairs are known as shared pairs or bonding pairs, and the stable balance of attractive and repulsive forces between atoms, when they share electrons, is known as covalent bonding.[1][better source needed] For many molecules, the sharing of electrons allows each atom to attain the equivalent of a full outer shell, corresponding to a stable electronic configuration.
    Covalent bonding includes many kinds of interactions, including σ-bonding, π-bonding, metal-to-metal bonding, agostic interactions, bent bonds, and three-center two-electron bonds.[2][3] The term covalent bond dates from 1939.[4] The prefix co- means jointly, associated in action, partnered to a lesser degree, etc.; thus a "co-valent bond", in essence, means that the atoms share "valence", such as is discussed in valence bond theory.
    In the molecule H
    2
    , the hydrogen atoms share the two electrons via covalent bonding.[5] Covalency is greatest between atoms of similar electronegativities. Thus, covalent bonding does not necessarily require that the two atoms be of the same elements, only that they be of comparable electronegativity. Covalent bonding that entails sharing of electrons over more than two atoms is said to be delocalized.





    Forgive me for doing so but this is what was explained to Dragonheart​ by an 80 year old scientist type that has spent his career in poly business.

    OS OK
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  5. #65
    Boolit Master OS OK's Avatar
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    I do. The other coatings (green?) exposed bare lead in the channels made by the lands. PC on the other hand is harder and flexible and with a coat of it at least as thick as 1/2 the height of a land, I have not seen this…well not on quality PC work as I have seen this with the 'splotchy' incomplete coat of Harbor Freight stuff.
    "Coating is coating as East is to west", refers to the fact that there are many types of coating. A copper jacket could be regarded as a coating since it encapsulates the core lead. Ketchup would coat…so would tinfoil…don't you get it that I'm trying to say that since I believe that this coating bonds at the molecular level and is tough/flexible, it doesn't sling off at high velocities liken to a copper plating…It is unique in the application and I believe that what we have been saying about it replacing lube is just…"the tip of the iceberg!".

    Are you trying to get this concept or just being argumentative…OS OK
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  6. #66
    Boolit Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Is it just me noticing this or has someone deleted recent post this morning and then gone back and 'edited' their post from yesterday? Only one time stamp is left to confirm.

    Why…OS OK
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

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  7. #67
    Boolit Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noisewaterphd View Post
    It may, or may not be useful to mention this isn't the first time Federal has released a coated bullet, and they were not the first or only major manufacturer to mass produce coated ammunition.

    Coated bullets are not a new thing. The concept has been around for decades.

    It is my personal belief that they haven't caught on with the masses not because of performance, but because of economical reasons (talking about production ammo here).

    If Federal is dipping their toes again, then it is likely due to rising copper costs (since 2001), and it sounds like maybe they have figured out the mass production end of it.

    I don't think Federal is powder coating, but coating is coating, it works.
    Nosewater…that was pretty slick!

    OS OK

    My post #65 was a 'civil' response to one that is mysteriously missing!
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  8. #68
    Boolit Master noisewaterphd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OS OK View Post
    Nosewater…that was pretty slick!

    OS OK

    My post #65 was a 'civil' response to one that is mysteriously missing!
    It is edited to help alleviate the possibilty of it being misconstrued.

    I deleted 2 other posts at my own discretion, I apologize if you were in the midst of replying to them.

    I will just say this. Plated is plated, coated is coated, and jacketed is jacketed. Folks already confuse them enough as it is.
    __
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  9. #69
    Boolit Master OS OK's Avatar
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    That's just the problem with this 'editing' your posts thing…you can say things with a 'snotty attitude' deliberately trying to incite another member or imply that he is shortsighted or a simpleton and then 'innocently' go back and edit for 'clarification' after someone has taken the time to show you a different/valid perspective altogether and also do it 'civilly' in a heated thread.
    The Mods do this with their 'big hammers' and the posts are left blank with everyone involved being held responsible…not the one doing the 'drive by posting' or ought-right 'trolling'.

    Now you have been 'called' for it and it is not right….OS OK
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  10. #70
    Boolit Master
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    OS OK; I would suggest we just let it all drop. There is no point in trying to have an open dicussion and exchange of ideas about anything with those that already have a closed mind on a subject, especially when replies are anything but cordial with insults edited out, then you you come away looking like the bad guy. I have conversed with a number of very knowledgeable individuals who refuse to post on this site, for this reason. As one gentleman told me," Why post on a site to try to help someone and then have some maven blast your efforts, I don't need that". I may soon decide to do the same myself. However, my original post was a sincere effort inform those with possible interest in trying powder coating to see a benefit that might be the the one thing for them that would be worth giving it a try; to that end I think the intent succeeded.

  11. #71
    Boolit Master OS OK's Avatar
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    "Thanks Richard, I needed a cold glass of water over the noggin! You are correct now and have been all along…I think I'll make like a tree and leave!"

    charlie
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  12. #72
    Vendor Sponsor Handloader109's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OS OK View Post
    Gosh how I hate to see someone constantly pasting from Wikipedia on every little thing…but…in this instance I have to do it myself as I could not explain this 'molecular bonding' any better than this..
    Covalent bond

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    "Covalent" redirects here. For other uses, see Covalent (disambiguation).

    A covalent bond forming H2 (right) where two hydrogen atoms share the two electrons

    A covalent bond is a chemical bond that involves the sharing of electron pairs between atoms. These electron pairs are known as shared pairs or bonding pairs, and the stable balance of attractive and repulsive forces between atoms, when they share electrons, is known as covalent bonding.[1][better source needed] For many molecules, the sharing of electrons allows each atom to attain the equivalent of a full outer shell, corresponding to a stable electronic configuration.
    Covalent bonding includes many kinds of interactions, including σ-bonding, π-bonding, metal-to-metal bonding, agostic interactions, bent bonds, and three-center two-electron bonds.[2][3] The term covalent bond dates from 1939.[4] The prefix co- means jointly, associated in action, partnered to a lesser degree, etc.; thus a "co-valent bond", in essence, means that the atoms share "valence", such as is discussed in valence bond theory.
    In the molecule H
    2
    , the hydrogen atoms share the two electrons via covalent bonding.[5] Covalency is greatest between atoms of similar electronegativities. Thus, covalent bonding does not necessarily require that the two atoms be of the same elements, only that they be of comparable electronegativity. Covalent bonding that entails sharing of electrons over more than two atoms is said to be delocalized.





    Forgive me for doing so but this is what was explained to Dragonheart​ by an 80 year old scientist type that has spent his career in poly business.

    OS OK
    Really? Bull hockey! There is no covalent bonding in pcing of lead..... It is simple melting of thermoset resin that bonds to itself. If there was, There wouldn't be the failure rate of pc coatings. Can't be flexible and bonded to an inflexible base. Copper isn't bonded either and at least they are both metals. And I agree that copper is a coating. But I can give you a photo or two of bullets that look almost identical to each other, just one is lead and the other is pc.......

  13. #73
    Super Moderator & Official Cast Boolits Sketch Artist


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    Reloading to save money I am sure the saving is going to start soon

  14. #74
    Boolit Master noisewaterphd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OS OK View Post
    That's just the problem with this 'editing' your posts thing…you can say things with a 'snotty attitude' deliberately trying to incite another member or imply that he is shortsighted or a simpleton and then 'innocently' go back and edit for 'clarification' after someone has taken the time to show you a different/valid perspective altogether and also do it 'civilly' in a heated thread.
    The Mods do this with their 'big hammers' and the posts are left blank with everyone involved being held responsible…not the one doing the 'drive by posting' or ought-right 'trolling'.

    Now you have been 'called' for it and it is not right….OS OK
    I quite honestly don't know what you are going on about. All i did was add a date, and add "it works". Mostly it was edited for the date, specifically to point out the rise in copper prices around 2000.

    My post from the outset was meant as complimentary to the posts before it. I was trying to show that even a major manufacturer like Federal could see the value in coated bullets clear back in the 70's.

    I see no problem with editing my post whatsoever. If you have a problem with the post, in either form, then I think you are just reading what you want to.
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  15. #75
    Boolit Master noisewaterphd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonheart View Post
    especially when replies are anything but cordial with insults edited out
    I never removed a single word from the post. I added to it.

    I also don't see any problem with any of the replies until now. All that was posted in reply was a wikipedia article about covalent bonding, which was never in debate by me, in any of my posts, ever.
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  16. #76
    Boolit Master flyingmonkey35's Avatar
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    Wow yet another Powder coating post gone to fighting words.

    We have gone over and over this topic with a lead hammer.

    But just like lube recipe's. Someone's else's are always better.

    As I have stated before I powder coat .

    As its fast. (The method I use is anyway).

    I get extremely little bit to no leading. But just like lube proper bullet fit.

    I am as accurate with my pistols and am happy .

    I do NOT shoot for one hole groups at 100 yards or 50 with my pistols. I'm just happy to hit the gong. At 15 and 25 yards.

    I no longer cast for rifle as u only shoot a 100 rounds a year. ( hard to get out to a good rifle range)

    So what does this have to do with powder coating?

    Its fun and adds another layer to my hobby.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by blikseme300 View Post
    Some of the claims are only true within a narrow frame of reference. PC does work but is not a magical fix for bad bullet casting and reloading methods. It is simply an alternate way to achieve a limited set of objectives.
    You know i remember when they said computers in cars don't last as long as the old carbureted engines. I even believed they were more trouble.

    All pc does is what computers did for the internal combustion engine....it made it better. Some still want a carburetor and points... No since preaching to the choir.....i digress.
















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  18. #78
    Boolit Mold
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    Great post. Thanks a lot. There is one more advantage that curing process is much faster in case of powder coating.

  19. #79
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by tech54K View Post
    Great post. Thanks a lot. There is one more advantage that curing process is much faster in case of powder coating.
    Thanks, Tech, one more for the list.

    I have to say when I came up with this post it was not my intention to start a war. My intent was to point out the value of a process I learned by trial and error after Sandy Hook (Sandy Hook was back in 2012) when I couldn't buy the bullets I needed to shoot my weekly IDPA matches. I realized that there are those that are committed to lube or another process, but little did I realize that the mavens would institute an all out and insulting attack.

    Since then I have posted little on this site as my time is much better spent elsewhere. At this point, a year and a half after this post, I can say Federal has proven the value of their "Polymer Jacket" and gone well past my post with scientific tests and evidence adding more reasons to powder coat.

  20. #80
    Boolit Master slim1836's Avatar
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    Powder coating lends itself to long term storage, lead boolits tend to oxidize over time.

    Slim
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