PC'ing Pure Lead Bullets

[Dinny]

Will the powder coat allow me to shoot pure lead up to 1500fps? Naturally I don't want any leading and no base deformations from the heat. I'm considering a hollow point pure lead for 300 BLK deer hunting. Sound doable?

Thanks, Dinny

[noisewaterphd]

Will the powder coat allow me to shoot pure lead up to 1500fps? Naturally I don't want any leading and no base deformations from the heat. I'm considering a hollow point pure lead for 300 BLK deer hunting. Sound doable?

Thanks, Dinny

I haven't tried it personally, but yes, you should be able to coat pure lead without leading.

It will not retain its shape like a harder alloy would though, so accuracy may be questionable.

I'm sure someone around here has tried it at some point or another and can give you first hand results.

[nagantguy]

Short answer, it depends, pure is of course soft, you can alloy it and or water drop to harden it some, fit, twist rate, coating and moon phase will all play a part. I shoot pcd boolits of soft lead in muzzle loaders, not gas checked but with a fiber wad at up to and over 1500 fast with very good . results and no leading. Give it a try, you might be surprised but I'd say one issue with real sort is deformation on the trip from magazine to chamber in a semiautomatic if that's your 300 platform.

[Dinny]

I have an AR and a H&R Handi rifle. I mostly save the jacketed loads for the AR. Now all I need to do is find a source for soft 30cal bullets of a HP design. Any ideas?

Thanks, Dinny

[bangerjim]

"FIT IS KING" today. If your boolits are custom sized to your barrels, then you should have minimum/no leading with PC. I preffer to shoot 9-12 in everything, I guess because I have many hundreds of pounds of Sn, Sb-laden alloys, and other fun stuff to cast them with when mixed with several tons of pure.

[chris in va]

I'm just relaying what I saw in another post.

A guy put some pure lead/PC through his 9mm and 45acp. The 45 did fine, bu the 9 being a much higher pressure/speed caliber pretty much squished down the barrel with terrible accuracy.

Wheelweights are getting a bit scarce lately so I plan to use pure lead for my 45 and save the clip-ons for the other stuff.

[rsrocket1]

You should try it to see how it works!
My guess is that the coating will stay on, my concern is the nose possibly slumping due to the higher velocity. The slumping could be caused by a high acceleration or a longer duration acceleration so the powder choice could also make a difference. If you can prove to yourself after shooting 20 bullets or so at 100 yards and see that if you wind up with acceptable groups and a clean barrel, you are good to go. If you get terrible groups or random flyers, I wouldn't trust it.

[flysubcompact]

I don't know, but as soon as I run all this current alloy out, I'm going to try it for some 9mm and MLer projectiles. I have a good bit of pure on hand and if the pure ones run well in my 9mm's, that will be perfect for my range plinking.

[Dinny]

Here's my next thought. If pure lead bullets are around 5-7 BHN, how much harder would they get if I water quenched them after coating? I may only shoot these up to 1200fps.

Thanks, Dinny

[blikseme300]

Pure lead often does not fill out molds well hence the use of tin to make it fill out better. 20-1 is often quoted as the best ratio for casting soft projectiles with good mold fill out.

[alfloyd]

"how much harder would they get if I water quenched them after coating?"

Pure/soft lead will not get harder by water quenching.
You need antimony to water quench harden.

Lafaun

[Dinny]

"how much harder would they get if I water quenched them after coating?"
Pure/soft lead will not get harder by water quenching.
You need antimony to water quench harden.
Lafaun

I got this same answer from a local caster. It looks like a 20:1 alloy is where I need to be then.

I don't cast (yet). Anyone interested in casting some 20:1 30cal HP or FP bullets for me to test?

Thanks, Dinny

[RP]

I casted up some pure 247gr and PC for my 300BO have to size nose first or they will deform it is a bore riding bullet so with the PC and nose swelling when the bullet is being seated I have a hit and miss with chambering. The ones that do chamber have not done any leading. That project is no the back burner right now so no updates.

[Dragonheart]

Here is a photo of a couple of recovered 185 grain 45 ACP bullets fired into a water/paper stop. The bullets were cast from as pure lead as I could find, plumbing lead vent stacks and then air cooled. Before the PC you could easily leave deep scratches in the lead bullets with a fingernail, so they were definitely soft. The cartridges were loaded to book maxium, 7.8 grains of VV N340, although not chronographed, book velocity indicates 1100 fps. The bullets were tumble coated.

As you can see the the Polymer Jackets kept their bond, protecting the barrel from leading and resisting the shear force that would normally tear at a standard lubed bullet as it engaged the rifling. A second photo shows a completely clean barrel after firing several of these PC pure lead bullets at a maxium charge. I wanted as soft of a bullet as I could make to prove the point that powder coating is not just another lubricant. Those that are powder coating are not just lubing bullets we are making Polymer Jacketed Bullets, with some unusual benefits, so the old thinking about grease on alloy does not apply to PC.
Attachment 161274Attachment 161275

[blikseme300]

What was the size of the CB's? I did a test using WW alloy cast with a Lee 120TC and after coating I sized them to .356" and loaded over 4.2gn of HP38. Shot from a BHP had keyholes at 10 yards with a scattergun spread. Sized at .3575" a tight 2" rapid-fire group so size/fit still rules. I tried some CB's cast from 20:1 alloy and after PC sized to .3575" over the same load above and had a spread, not a group. PC works but there is more to crafting good ammo than colors.

[Dragonheart]

What was the size of the CB's? I did a test using WW alloy cast with a Lee 120TC and after coating I sized them to .356" and loaded over 4.2gn of HP38. Shot from a BHP had keyholes at 10 yards with a scattergun spread. Sized at .3575" a tight 2" rapid-fire group so size/fit still rules. I tried some CB's cast from 20:1 alloy and after PC sized to .3575" over the same load above and had a spread, not a group. PC works but there is more to crafting good ammo than colors.

Your are right, PC is not about colors and at this point I probably have more questions about PC than answers.

You didn't mention what the slug size was on your barrel, without that there is no starting point. I have many 9mm's by different manufactures and the barrels run typically from .355" to .3565", so when you are talking bullet sizing of .0015 as you can see I have that just in variation of my barrels. But to answer your question, for load development I usually size .001" over my slug barrel size and have no keyholing at 25 yards using PC bullets. But bullet sizing is just one component into developing the most accurate load for a particular handgun.

As far as your load with that weight bullet I would suggest increasing you charge of HP-38 to 4.6 grains, that should bring your velocity in at approximately 1200 fps. Your case length should be .750", no shorter, and I would have my COAL at maxium 1.165". That should put your groups under 2" at 25 yards, but there is no accounting for the handgun itself as some guns are just 4" or greater no matter what the load.

[rsrocket1]

When I got a Beretta 92fs, it slugged at 0.357 with a 0.358" throat and my M&P 9 and Shield slug at 0.3545" with a 0.356" throat. I thought that I would either have to load 2 different sized bullets, one at 0.356" and one at 0.358" or seat the 0.358" TC bullets to where the cone touches the rim (0.27" seat depth and 1.050" COL). The latter option really puts a limit on the powder charge and I want ~1100 fps to get good case ejection. That puts Titegroup on the razor's edge of +P pressures.

Lately, I've been shooting the 0.356" sized PC bullets seated to 1.115" COL which puts the edge of the lube groove at the case rim (the cone now sits 0.065" above the rim). The loads shoot fine in all 3 guns and accuracy seems to be unaffected in the Beretta. This gives me 1150 fps with a little more safety margin in Pmax. So I guess it's not just colors and fit, but hardness (or softness) of the bullet combined with pressures that would affect success of a PC cast bullet.

[Dragonheart]

I have found that the seating depth and case length affects the group size big time. The same things benchrest shooters do applies to handguns also, at least when they can be done. With a pistol your round has to fit in a magazine so setting the bullet COAL out as far as possible to minimize the jump only works with some bullet designs. But typically reducing the travel distance to the rifling will make a more accurate load. Since all barrels are not alike that travel distance will also vary with the barrel. Also most 9mm cases tend to be shorter than.750". Short cases are headspacing off the extractor instead mouth of the case and cause the groups to open.

[flyingrhino]

Here's my next thought. If pure lead bullets are around 5-7 BHN, how much harder would they get if I water quenched them after coating? I may only shoot these up to 1200fps.

Thanks, Dinny

My range scrap measured 5.5 air cooled. Thats almost pure lead. Pure comes in at 5 BHN. Water dropped pushed them to 11 BHN. When PC'd they dropped back down to 7-8 BHN. Id put a gas check on them. Im pushing my 155 grain bullets to 1900 fps with checks. Excellent accuracy and no leading. 16" 1:8 twist 300 BO. Excellent deer rifle. Thats the Lee 312-155-2R, PC'd, sized to 309 and checked.

[blikseme300]

Your are right, PC is not about colors and at this point I probably have more questions about PC than answers.

You didn't mention what the slug size was on your barrel, without that there is no starting point. I have many 9mm's by different manufactures and the barrels run typically from .355" to .3565", so when you are talking bullet sizing of .0015 as you can see I have that just in variation of my barrels. But to answer your question, for load development I usually size .001" over my slug barrel size and have no keyholing at 25 yards using PC bullets. But bullet sizing is just one component into developing the most accurate load for a particular handgun.

As far as your load with that weight bullet I would suggest increasing you charge of HP-38 to 4.6 grains, that should bring your velocity in at approximately 1200 fps. Your case length should be .750", no shorter, and I would have my COAL at maxium 1.165". That should put your groups under 2" at 25 yards, but there is no accounting for the handgun itself as some guns are just 4" or greater no matter what the load.

The test pistol slugged at .356" as do a number of my other 9mm pistols and I have found that sizing to .3575" works in all of them. Seating depth is determined by the longest that will chamber in all the pistols and not published OAL or magazine length. I know this is not the best for accuracy from them all but I don't do custom loads for individual 9mm's and I don't carry or hunt with 9mm. (10mm & 460 Rowland is a different matter, but off-topic.)

I recently started doing PC using material from Smoke along with the advice and experiences from this forum and so far am impressed and I don't impress easily. (Been called a curmudgeon and I'm OK with that.) My main interest with PC is to test if it will allow me to hunt with rifles using softer alloy accurately at higher velocity than what I can currently do with the CB loads I have worked up. So far results are good and very similar to conventional but more work needs to be done to determine if it has an edge. Rifles currently are all Marlin's in 30-30, 308MX and 444. These rifles have filled my freezer many times over using cast so PC must add a value or there is no reason to switch.