sorry fans of coated bullets

[Friar_Tuck]

This thread amazes me! When I saw the title, "sorry fans of coated bullets," in the forum dedicated to PC and alternates, I was sure it would go south. I did not even open it for a while as I was sure it was a troll. Once it stuck around a while I braced myself and dropped in. I am pleasantly surprised to see the high level of civility here! There are so many things that we can find to divide us, it is great to see that we can discuss our different opinions and still stick together. I really enjoy Powder Coating, wild colors and all. I have been reloading for decades, but just got into casting. When I started, I decided to try powder Coating first so I could avoid the cost of a good lubrisizer. Once I saw the results, I was hooked. I try my best to be at the range when no one else is there, so in the end there is only one person that sees my boolits, and I enjoy them. Thanks for making this such a great site!
Jim

[Motor]

You are 100% correct Jim.

It's too bad the "HOLY BLACK" crowd can't use this thread as an example to live by.

Motor

[jcwit]

Lloyd, I'd suggest trying it.

I went to a local powder coater and got a small amount in a paper cup, gave it to me for free. It happened to be red.

Went home and did the shake & bake method using a small plastic container like cole slaw comes in at a deli. Didn't even use any plastic BB's. Baked the cast bullets for 20 min. at 400 degrees. Turned out fantastic. Cost? (0)

My bullets are now clean and produce zero leading. Cleaning the barrel amounts to running a wet patch down the bore.

BTW the amount of powder the Amish shop gave me coated approx. 1,000 bullets. All 9mm.

[mannparks]

Tonto liked the lone rangers bullets

[dikman]

Motor, I'm going to load some coated boolits with the Holy Black, that way I get the best of both worlds.

[Circuit Rider]

I'm in my mid 70's and don't do NEARLY as much shooting as most of you guys. But since I started powder coating a year ago, I spend less time with cleanup. I've got my Daughter and Granddaughters(ages 17 and 15) shooting. How did I get them interested in shooting? Pink and Purple boolits using Smoke's powder. What ever it takes to get them interested. CR

[Smoke4320]

I'm in my mid 70's and don't do NEARLY as much shooting as most of you guys. But since I started powder coating a year ago, I spend less time with cleanup. I've got my Daughter and Granddaughters(ages 17 and 15) shooting. How did I get them interested in shooting? Pink and Purple boolits using Smoke's powder. What ever it takes to get them interested. CR

Man that makes me happy .. Our only hope is to bring as many NEW people to shooting as we can .. girls and women especially !!

[Lloyd Smale]

your probably right in that I'm in the minority on this sub fourm for alternate coatings. I guess that's like going on a ford fourm and bashing a mustang. But id say if you look at the whole membership on the entire cast bullet forum I'm far from the minority. Id say good old lube sized bullets are used by members here 10 to 1 (at least) over coated bullets. Some of you are reading me wrong. I never said your partical coated bullets didn't work. What I said is there but ugly.

As to some here claiming you cant avoid leading with lead bullets ill say this. Sized properly and lubed with a good lube I will say that NONE of my guns leads excessively. Ive never had to scrape the lead out of any of them and if you are your doing something wrong or your gun is a ***. Like was said even jacketed bullets leave some fouling and I would imagine that coated bullets leave coating on the rifling. A small amount of lead in your barrel hurts nothing. Leading to me is when it effects accuracy. there isn't a gun in my safe that I shoot cast bullets through that I couldn't go out and shoot 5000 bullets out of without cleaning. As a matter of fact I rarely clean any handgun barrel. Only time I will is when I'm know I'm going to put that gun away for more then a year.

Ive got a couple 1911s that I shoot ppc with that I don't know how many rounds have gone through them without cleaning the barrel but 5000 passed by a long time ago. bottom line here is the only place I can possibly see an advantage is high speed rifle bullets and ive had pretty pathetic luck using cast bullets on deer in calibers below .35 anyway so my flat shooting guns get jacketed. I just don't see a need to push a cast rifle bullet to 2700 fps. Maybe you do and that's ok.

If you cant keep your handgun from leading up even with lee alox you either aren't sizing correctly or have a gun that needs fixing. You can put a bandaid on it by coating your bullets or by trying softer alloys to bump up ect but its still a defective gun that in my opinion should be fixed or sold. Now ill bow out of here. Like was said this is a coating sub forum and Me and elmer aren't welcome here

I hate to argue with you, but you posted this in the "ALTERNATE COATINGS" thread and here, my friend, you ARE in the minority! I am not talking about the entire almost 40K group of members (most of which are totally inactive anyway!) but ONLY here. You crossed the threashhold into the PC house and we discuss and use PC here, not grease. Most of us do not go into grease-only forums and discuss PC at length like you did here.

Some use both. No problem there. And from what I have read, most of the people using PC are NOT "young" fellers. You CAN teach an old dog new tricks.........when those new tricks are really fun & cool! People at the ranges are totally fascinated with my process and performance when they see my green and blue and red and flatt black boolits.

Try it, you will like it. Even if it is only clear. You will not see a spec of bare or greasy lead in my shop. All boolits are plastic coated.....and they are DEFINITELY not pink or purple!

That's life.......live it to it's full! No matter old or young.

banger

[JSnover]

Id say good old lube sized bullets are used by members here 10 to 1 (at least) over coated bullets.

Hey Lloyd, how long have cast boot shooters been sizing and lubing as we know it today?
Now, how long has PC been around?
That might explain the disparity. For quite some time you have had the ability to buy your boolits cast and lubed commercially. If you're not already able to by commercial PC boolits, I'm sure you will be by the end of the year. Heck, it won't surprise me if someone says they already received a made-for-the-purpose PC starter kit for Christmas or their birthday.
The first days of new technology are always terrible, because it's still being developed and it has to overcome resistance (bias, like yours). The last days of old technology are always terrific, because everything is dialed-in, everybody knows how it works and exactly what to do.
I don't powder coat but I'm pretty sure I'll be in the minority someday.

[dverna]

The vast majority of cast bullets shot are pistol bullets. This is the "easiest" application for any lube. Both acceptable accuracy and negligible leading are well with reach of most.

I do do not use coatings but they are a good way to achieve relatively high production rates with minimal expense. Personally, I think BLL is a better option but it will smoke more than coatings if that is a factor. For many shooters, coatings make a lot of sense. That is why more people are doing it. THEY ARE NOT NUTS!

Nothing currently available will beat a Star for speed and consistency. But how many people need that speed or can justify the expense? Coatings will give about half the production rate at a quarter the investment. What is not to like? And for those who are too lazy or inept to work up the right load, with the right alloy, and the right sized diameter, coatings appear to be more forgiving. Heck, look at all the threads about leading in 9mm and .40 S&W!!!

[doghawg]

I have a Star, Lyman 450, and RCBS II each with different lubes. Also have LLA, LLA mixed with floor wax, and a jar of Harbor Freight red and a Cool Whip bowl and....they all work. It's nice to have choices!

[Lloyd Smale]

I guess I have to ask. Don't you have to size a bullet just like you do with conventional lube? yes I know bullets can be shot unsized but its not every bullet that will allow this and still produce peak accuracy. So if I have to run them though a sizer doesn't that make it more work because when they go through my star there done and ready. With a coating I still would have to coat the bullet. yes I sure it could be used like a lot of beginners do with alox but not to many that become serious casters don't size there bullets. So this to me would be more of a replacement for tumble lubing then it would be a replacement for lubesizing. More for economics then for performance.

The vast majority of cast bullets shot are pistol bullets. This is the "easiest" application for any lube. Both acceptable accuracy and negligible leading are well with reach of most.

I do do not use coatings but they are a good way to achieve relatively high production rates with minimal expense. Personally, I think BLL is a better option but it will smoke more than coatings if that is a factor. For many shooters, coatings make a lot of sense. That is why more people are doing it. THEY ARE NOT NUTS!

Nothing currently available will beat a Star for speed and consistency. But how many people need that speed or can justify the expense? Coatings will give about half the production rate at a quarter the investment. What is not to like? And for those who are too lazy or inept to work up the right load, with the right alloy, and the right sized diameter, coatings appear to be more forgiving. Heck, look at all the threads about leading in 9mm and .40 S&W!!!

[blikseme300]

I have a Star, Lyman 450, and RCBS II each with different lubes. Also have LLA, LLA mixed with floor wax, and a jar of Harbor Freight red and a Cool Whip bowl and....they all work. It's nice to have choices!

Well put, PC just adds another tool or option to the mix. It is not a replacement of all that came before that magically allows super accurate shooting. There is much more than just coating that affects accurate shooting and terminal performance.

[Lloyd Smale]

kind of my point. Some think that all they have to do is coat there as casted bullets and magically there going to be able to bypass everything that us bullet casters have to overcome. Its just a coating. No different the alox tumble lubing other then it might be a slightly better lubricant. Tumble lubing came along and was toted as being the end all bullet lubricant. Some said the lubesizer was dead. Well the experience casters found out different. Yes it works but you just cant cast some bullets our of whatever alloy you have and coat them unsized and expect them to give you the ultimate in accuracy. I think some there think its some kind of magic potion that makes everything before it obsolete..

Well put, PC just adds another tool or option to the mix. It is not a replacement of all that came before that magically allows super accurate shooting. There is much more than just coating that affects accurate shooting and terminal performance.

[Hickok]

Attachment 160962Well Lloyd, I figure I might as well tell my secret. I have some one who helps me out with my PC by adding pixie dust!

No, she doesn't have any sisters or cousins!

[Dragonheart]

As to some here claiming you cant avoid leading with lead bullets ill say this. Sized properly and lubed with a good lube I will say that NONE of my guns leads excessively.

Kudos to Lloyd, for admitting what all of us old timers know; regardless of the amount of residue lubed/coated alloy, copper jackets/plate and Moly all leave a residue in gun barrels. Powder Coating is only one way I have found to get around this residue that bonds to the barrel steel.

What most seems to be missing is PC when properly done is more than a lube, it is more than a coating, it is a polymer jacket. We are not just applying grease or just a lubricating coating we are making Jacketed Bullets. So between the processes lubrication is the only issue for compairson and in our tests PC provides approximately a 4% velocity increase over several tested bullet lubes.

Beyond the lubrication compairson, with proper thickness and curing when a powder coated bullet engages the rifling the bullet alloy conforms to the lands and grooves, but the alloy itself does not contact the metal barrel. The bullet is literally riding on this hard tough polymer jacket, providing superior lubrication and protecting the bullet's base from gas erosion/blowby like a gas check. It is the toughness of this polymer jacket that is resisting the shear force allowing higher chamber pressures/velocity than what the alloy alone could withstand. A bullet alloy can be hard to the point of being brittle, but the alloy is not tough. The same goes for copper plating, which is pure copper and copper lacks toughness. This lack of toughness is the reason for the velocity restrictions on plated bullets as the copper plate at higher pressures will be literally torn away from the alloy.

PC bullets leave no leading residue and the only debris that I have been able to discern that remains in a relatively clean barrel is residue from the combustion.

So to all those that are happy with lube, stay happy and continue on. But I and most of us Powder Coaters here on in the "Coating & Alternatives" are into "Alternatives" and very happy creating our colorful "Polymer Jackets". Maybe if you start thinking of it as making a jacketed bullet and not just a lubricant you will give it a try?

[mto7464]

For me the biggest advantage was being able to use cast in my 300 blackout ar15. No lube or lead to foul up the gas system. Used traditional lubed bullets in an M1 carbine and over time the system had some lead in it so I stopped but PC will allow me to go back to using cast. PC will not work in every application, as I have found, but it solved all problems for me in an AR platform. Now to find a proper mold for my 6.8 spcII.

[Lloyd Smale]

now theres a practical application. No claims of being easier, cheaper or more accurate. I have shot alot of lead out of my beowulf. Now with hard alloys and if i use a harder lube fouling isnt to bad but eventually it will catch up to you. I wonder if after a period of time you would get a build up of coating in the gas system? Anyone shot a thousand or so and checked?

For me the biggest advantage was being able to use cast in my 300 blackout ar15. No lube or lead to foul up the gas system. Used traditional lubed bullets in an M1 carbine and over time the system had some lead in it so I stopped but PC will allow me to go back to using cast. PC will not work in every application, as I have found, but it solved all problems for me in an AR platform. Now to find a proper mold for my 6.8 spcII.

[flysubcompact]

I'm new to reloading/casting. As a beginner, I was at the stage where I was Aloxing my castings and was going to invest in a traditional sizer/lube rig, but that is when these PCing topics came up. I was going to buy a lubrisizer, but decided to try PC instead.

I don't care what color they are. I'm a utilitarian sort and PC accomplishes what I need...not as smoky, no leading, no precise lead alloys and nothing I've PCed so far has tumbled in flight. Plus, with Alox, I'd have to wait a week for that mess to cure and they were still tacky. I can cast a bunch, let them cool, PC and shoot them that day. That could happen with a lubrisizer, but I chose this way instead.

My daughter likes the pretty red ones. They slap steel, accurately, so that is all I care about.

[flysubcompact]

For me the biggest advantage was being able to use cast in my 300 blackout ar15. No lube or lead to foul up the gas system. Used traditional lubed bullets in an M1 carbine and over time the system had some lead in it so I stopped but PC will allow me to go back to using cast. PC will not work in every application, as I have found, but it solved all problems for me in an AR platform. Now to find a proper mold for my 6.8 spcII.

I have no desire for an AR15 rifle, except for one in 300BLK (if I could cast my own bullets). What mold/alloy do you use for your rig?