Who makes their dies?

[BT Sniper]

You know what I wonder? Who makes the dies for the big guys? Sierra, Hornady, Nosler, Speer, Berger, etc. etc. etc.

They must have to sign a pretty big nondisclosure agreement or something because I never here any stories about a previous employee that set out on their own to offer swage dies???? Or maybe they did????

BT

[garandsrus]

I would assume they have in-house tool and die guys that make them

[BT Sniper]

I assume so too but...... you got to assume that at one point this specialist left the company to pursue new ventures???? Or a company goes out of business?

[Utah Shooter]

I know Berger started with Roarscharch (?) dies but I do believe it is in house as well. I know the vendor who supplies a lot of them with their lead. Next time they are in town I will ask to see if maybe they know.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

I know a few older retired machinist that made bullet swaging dies for Olin/Winchester. One of them is my parents neighbor so I will ask next time I see him. They made all of theirs in house.

[clodhopper]

A couple of years ago, I was hired by ATK, BLACKHAWK! in Manhattan MT they offered minimal wages 9bucks, insurance, paid holidays, a three day 36 hr workweek and 4 day 48 hr work week.

They handed me a four page legal document, they called a "non disclosure" agreement. Two pages of non disclosure, non competition legalese. Third page was my agreement that they would own any idea I had, that I did not list in the half page box on the fourth page.

I started listing stuff, reloading, bullet making, cartridge case reforming, modified sight mounts, modified rifle stocks, model rocketry, and with the realization that they were paying me 9 bucks an hour to stack injection molded ammo boxes, finished up the dialog box with a clause about how I could not list every idea I ever had, that I did not agree to their right to my ideas.

Two days later I received a call at home, was told that ATK only accepted "non disclosure" agreements signed as presented. I was offered a chance to sign like a good little employee. But did not agree. Was told to not come back.

ATK spun off BLACKHAWK with the other sporting business shorty after that.

I would guess a "non disclosure" agreement like this is pretty standard in big business.

[BT Sniper]

All good info, I was just curious and figured it would make for good conversation. I'm within a couple hours of Nolser, actually had a few of their employees stop by the shop years ago, maybe they where checking up on the small "one man" operations ha! I doubt it, at the time I was still using drill presses and hand held grinders but it was a good visit. Someday I should make a venture over their way.

Love to here more stories.

Good shooting and swage on!

BT


p.s. Don't know what to think about ATK???? They seem to buy up all the small successful sporting goods companies then they continue to offer the same product line yet not sure about the continued quality of the product. Savage Arms comes to mind, they finally got there act together and made some very good rifles then ATK came along and bought them, now????? well??? I don't know and can't say exactly but the Model 12 223rem BVSS rifle I bought made by "Savage" before ATK, was an incredibly accurate shooting gun. Haven't bought any new Savage (ATK) rifles lately?

[Ballistics in Scotland]

A couple of years ago, I was hired by ATK, BLACKHAWK! in Manhattan MT they offered minimal wages 9bucks, insurance, paid holidays, a three day 36 hr workweek and 4 day 48 hr work week.

They handed me a four page legal document, they called a "non disclosure" agreement. Two pages of non disclosure, non competition legalese. Third page was my agreement that they would own any idea I had, that I did not list in the half page box on the fourth page.

I started listing stuff, reloading, bullet making, cartridge case reforming, modified sight mounts, modified rifle stocks, model rocketry, and with the realization that they were paying me 9 bucks an hour to stack injection molded ammo boxes, finished up the dialog box with a clause about how I could not list every idea I ever had, that I did not agree to their right to my ideas.

Two days later I received a call at home, was told that ATK only accepted "non disclosure" agreements signed as presented. I was offered a chance to sign like a good little employee. But did not agree. Was told to not come back.

ATK spun off BLACKHAWK with the other sporting business shorty after that.

I would guess a "non disclosure" agreement like this is pretty standard in big business.

It is pretty standard in all sizes of business, but it has its limits. In every jurisdiction I know of, the courts are reluctant to prevent an employee who has left in due form from earning his living by his specialist skill. It is running a sideline or selling knowhow to others while at work that they are liable to come down on. The sideline part has to be something in fairly direct competition with the employer. Another kind of precision engineer who makes dies would be in the clear.

New ideas are a different ball game. The agreement usually constitutes an assignment of any patent that can be taken out. In that case the company has exclusive ownership of the rights for the fourteen years a patent is in force, and none after that, just like a patent they buy from outside. After expiry or if no patent is taken out, it is just another work skill.

[William Yanda]

I don't know about non-disclosure agreements. I had to sign a non-compete agreement at my playground installer job. Rumor from other employees was that it was unenforceable as there was no compensation involved. My $.02, YMMV.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I don't believe a clause for which no specific compensation is given is necessarily unenforceable. They would argue that it is all part of the compensation you receive for various inconveniences, such as having to work and turn up fully clothed. But I doubt if a court would find for a previous employer in such a case. It might depend on how much time has intervened.

[just bill]

Brian, I've wondered not who makes your dies, but how do you make your dies. I don't know how many hundred you've made. I have had a few opportunities to do repetitious undertakings but not like machining hundreds of dies with the many different, yet simular, cuts and components. I worked in an atomic machine shop in the laborer position, I kept mobile by cleaning machines and do initial layout with the band saw, but nothing like lathe operating.
Bill

[country gent]

I would believe most companies have in house tool rooms / machine shops to not only make dies, equipment maintence, gages and other things but also for research and development work. Once an idea is on paper and been thought thru it has to be put in steel and proven. I also think the biggest share of the forming dies at Sierra hornady berger speer remington and winchester are carbide not HSS steel. When it comes to Research and Development you dont want your new ideas out sourced. WOrked in tool rooms for 30 years we did alot of one offs and R&D things to imporve processes or speed up operations. Fixtures and gages were all good jobs one offs normally and interesting as it was alot of thinking and planning a new job. Reverse engineering wasnt as interesting since you were just duplicating the existing parts. I would be willing to bet that all the big boys factories have tool rooms with several Computerr controlled edms in them and some very skilled personal at the controls. Along with heat treat shops and some nice machining centers.

[michael.birdsley]

I had to sign one of the disclosures when i started in Auto manufacturing 6 years ago. Any more with the advent of CNC laths and mills the specialty of a tool and dye maker is a lost art. I am a Quality tech at and a very large machine shop. Employing almost 400 people in two plants we have one actual machinist that works 1st shift. he basicall just make specialty pieces for all the departments. We machine power train components for the big three, Nissan and Toyota also, we do in house induction heat treat and carbonizing with furnace's and draws. They have dumbed it down so much to where a operator just has to hit the green button, take the part out, and gauge it. Its why they dont have to pay them as much any more. The big money positions any more are in engineering, machine techs/set up and quality. I gurantee this is similar to what Lee, RBCS, and lyman do. put the part in the machine and hit go and that operation is done and on to the next one.

[Sitzme]

I used to be a machine designer and the nondisclosure agreement has been standard practice forever. If you want to be paid big money for your idea, you need to take the big risk. If you want a regular pay check then what you produce belongs to the company.

The bigger companies that I worked for paid their tool and die makers better than the engineers, and they deserved it. I can't imagine many of them wanting to give up the high pay, paid vacation, and health insurance to roll the dice being self employed. I also worked for some small shops where the pay scale was lower across the board. There was talent there also but they probably didn't have the exposure to the swaging products and as BT knows, you don't just decide to start cranking them out. It is a niche market that is currently under served but what would happen if 6 more good makers came into the market?

[elk hunter]

Nosler makes their dies in house.

I had the nickle tour when they moved into their current facility, very interesting.

Brian,

At one time Nosler offered tours of their plant, don't know if they still do but it would be worth a phone call to find out if your ever over this way.

[varmint243]

There is a big difference between a NDA and an assignment of invention.
There are also non-compete agreements that are just as common.

An NDA is common just about everywhere I have worked, and I have never had an issue signing one.

A boilerplate assignment of invention is another matter
If you read the wording, companies want you to sign over the rights to any idea you ever had or ever will have, whether it was while you were working at the company or not and whether it was a company project or a personal one.
I refused to sign an boiler plate assignment of invention after I had been working at a job for multiple years
It ultimately let to a chain of events that resulted in my parting ways with the company
I have no regrets about my decision
I have had many jobs and hobbies where I have come up with creative solutions to problems
Sign that paper and the company now owns the rights to anything you have ever done or ever will do unless you are already named on a specific patent
For many people this is a non-issue because they aren't creative and don't make things
For others of us this is a ridiculous piece of paperwork

As far as the non-compete goes, that is an easy work around because if you decide to work for a company that may fall under the agreement all you have to do is get approval first and most companies would avoid trying to block you.

buyer beware on all the documents you will be asked to sign

[Mica_Hiebert]

Speer makes all their tooling in house... I never had to sign a no compete contract or give up my rights to patent an invention... and I am not alowed to disclose my salary but as a machine set up for cci I earn a comfterble wage. I can't speak for all Vista Outdoor (formerly ATK) companies as I am not in the know but I do know that cci/speer continue to make quality products at historically high production rates to try and keep up with current demand. I would assume that they carry the same bussiness model for all of their companies.

[ReloaderFred]

Mica,

If you happen to see Brett Olin, now that he's retired, tell him I gave some stuff to the VO reps at the SHOT Show for him two weeks ago. They said they'd get it to him, so I hope they did.

Nosler still offers the tours, but you have to call a day ahead of time. They're usually given about 3:00 in the afternoon and start in the store next to the plant.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Mica_Hiebert]

Mica,

If you happen to see Brett Olin, now that he's retired, tell him I gave some stuff to the VO reps at the SHOT Show for him two weeks ago. They said they'd get it to him, so I hope they did.

Nosler still offers the tours, but you have to call a day ahead of time. They're usually given about 3:00 in the afternoon and start in the store next to the plant.

Hope this helps.

Fred

I have never met him but it is a company of over 2000 employees spread over 3 properties but if this is any indication of how cci/ speer cares about their team members his retirement announcement is a screen saver on all department computers with a re,ognitikn list off all his accomplishments over his career and they have some comemerative ammo at the employee store for those who want a keep sake.

[ReloaderFred]

Brett was in the rimfire section of the plant, but also wrote all the blackpowder data for the latest Speer Reloading manual. I would look him up every year at the SHOT Show and I'd bring him old CCI memorabilia, some of which is in the display in the lobby. He retired this past December after 30+ years with the company.

Fred