Cast in AR, Unreasonable hopes? Please critique my plan

[Scout800a]

Hi Guys,


I have searched here but I'm not finding all my answers yet. Please give me your opinion of what I want and tell me if I can do it.

1. cast boolit load for an AR. 1/7 twist
2. Thinking heavy for 22 like 60-70 gr boolit. Most likely an NOE mold.
3. Plain base if I can, those teeny gas checks don't look fun
4. Enough velocity to cycle, maybe 1500-2000 fps would be great.
5. Boolit would be PC'd. Had good luck thus far.

The idea is an easy load for kids to shoot. Good for rabbits ectc. Maybe some 100yd accuracy would be nice, 3 inches would be fine. Am I asking too much?

[WilliamDahl]

If it is for kids, load them with a couple of grains of a fast pistol / shotgun powder (e.g. Red Dot, Clays, etc) and let the kids shoot them as basically a single shot / bolt action where they have to manually cycle the bolt each time. Maybe even remove the gas tube so that they *have* to cycle it by hand each time regardless of the load?

[GhostHawk]

Ok, you can load little lead boolits in .223 but you have to seriously dial back the power if you don't want leading.

I have 2 loads worked up for my single shot .223 both with the lee Bator, both with Red Dot powder.

With gas check at 6-7 grains and without at 4-5 grains.

Neither will likely cycle your action.

The low power load is more accurate than a .22lr at range, very quiet, very inexpensive.

The trick is to do it with just enough of the right powder to cycle your action.
Try to push them too hard and you will be cleaning lead out of your barrel, and cussing the poor accuracy.

My low power load aims for 1375 fps so I don't have to use gas checks.
I suspect a slower twist barrel will be better for cast than the fast twists.

[A pause for the COZ]

1-7 is pretty fast. Best results I had was with a heavier bullet 70gr powder coated and GC's ahead of 5744 and that was in a 1-9.

I gave up and built a 1-12 20 inch barrel AR. Life is good now even down to 55gr.

[runfiverun]

your plan won't work.
high gas volume and low velocity are really not compatible.

[clearcut]

Scout ,I have been contemplating the same,and am now looking at the low power springs from Wolf that may allow the bolt to cycle with a 60 + grn cast PC'd GC'd boolit .I'll be watching this thread for more input on the subject thanks for bringing it up.

CC

[Scout800a]

your plan won't work.
high gas volume and low velocity are really not compatible.

OK, so what should I change in the equation? I haven't bought anything yet. Should I plan on using gas checks and ratchet up the power and harden the alloy? Slower twist barrel? I have a 300blk AR that I cast for. I saw some cheap uppers (219 at PSA with a BCG or CH) and it got me thinking. I'd love to leave the 22lr in the safe and be able to reload. So if I can find a 1/8 or 1/9 upper, should I go to a lighter bullet and gas check them? I like the idea of the AR platform for kid shooters. I can support the business end while they can shorten the stock and get on the sights properly. My blackout kicks a little much for the little ones

All advise is much appreciated.

[Scout800a]

Thats a good idea too.

[freebullet]

You can do it but, it won't work.

Plain base is normally only going to net accuracy up to about 1200fps. You can push that up in the 1400-1600fps area with some tweaks, tricks, & experimenting. Those loads will cycle some unregulated gas ar pistols, not so much for rifles.
Let us know how it works.

[A pause for the COZ]

Loading cast bullets in a 5.56 AR15 is not for the faint of heart. 1st off your taking a platform that was specifically designed for one purpose. Take a very light projectile, Using a slow burning powder, Move that projectile very very VERY fast.operating a gas system that is adjusted for that load.
We are trying to get it to do almost the opposite.
Hard enough, now factor in all the different barrel lengths, twist rates, gas ports, ect.
Its like taking 4 penny's and dumping them into a 55 gal drum of penny's. mixing them up. now find your 4 penny's.

Can it be done??? YUP it can. I recommend many coffee breaks. Took me a year to get what I wanted.
You cant just copy loads ether. The 65gr PC GC .227 bullet ahead of 16.5 gr of 5744 that I can easily do a 30 round mag dump into a 4 inch square with my 1 in 12 20 inch rifle. Same load shot from my 1 in 9 carbine wont stay inside a pie plate at 100 yards.
On the flip side the 70 gr load using a slower powder topped with a filler. That shoots ok out of my 1 in 9.
I maybe saw two key holes in the backer board from my rifle at 100 yards.

[aspangler]

I get 1 1/2" groups with the 225646 cast from wd coww gc'ed over 20.5 grains of Alliant Varmint. Full function and no leading. It can be done but won't be a "quiet" load by any means. Haven't crono'ed them but would bet on 2100-2300 fps. Plent of oooph to down 'yotes, etc.

[upnorthwis]

I've already done this in a 1/9" with 55 gr. sized to .227. PC is good and you will need GC's for sure. Mine go 2500 fps with no leading yet. 22gr. AA2520. Brass must be trimmed to same length to get a consistent crimp or they will not feed reliably. No filler needed.

[clearcut]

I'm going to try it with a 1:7 AR when my mold/ gas checks/sizer/wolff spring gets here.

CC

[leadman]

I have shot the old Lee Bator out of my Contender 24" bull barrel that are gas checked and consist of heat treated linotype over 3,600 fps with the Hi-Tek Gold 1035 coating on them. For testing of these loads I went beyond published data for H4895 and had just enough room in the neck to start the boolit. Don't recommend this. These same boolits leave the barrel of my AR15 with 16" barrel at just over 3,000 fps. No leading in either gun. Group sizes were around 2 1/2" at 100 yards with the full power loads.
Best accuracy was slower in the Contender at just under 3,000 fps and 2,600 fps in the AR.
You may or may not get by without GCs by PC them. I would use a hard alloy around 18 bhn or more with a powder like RL7 or 4198 if you wanted to try for semi-auto function. If you want the gun to not cycle try Unique or 2400 speed powders. I have used around 6 to 8 grains of Unique in my Contender for a small game load with the Lyman 45gr RN GC.

[dogmower]

FWIW, I shoot a 65 grain saeco gas checked over 18.5-20 grains of aa2230. shoots grapefruit sized groups at 200 meters, cycles the action and no leading (powder coated boolit).

[destrux]

If it is for kids, load them with a couple of grains of a fast pistol / shotgun powder (e.g. Red Dot, Clays, etc) and let the kids shoot them as basically a single shot / bolt action where they have to manually cycle the bolt each time. Maybe even remove the gas tube so that they *have* to cycle it by hand each time regardless of the load?

I would be concerned about that gas coming out of the gas block back toward the shooter's hands without any tube to direct it safely into the receiver.

[destrux]

To get an AR to cycle with a bullet that light going only 1,400 fps or so you will need both a lighter buffer spring and you will need to take apart a buffer and gut the internal weights out of it because carrier and buffer weight will be more of a hindrance with gas port pressure that low than the spring itself will be. You may even need a lightweight carrier.

I know guys trying to get the 90gr subsonic .223 ammo to cycle (with the aid of a suppressor which helps the gas system) have had to go to such lengths.

Personally, I will stick with jacketed as long as 55gr pills are still going for 5 cents a pop. I won't pull my molds for the .223 out till they're cresting 15 cents a piece again or are unavailable.

[Gunnut 45/454]

I found that the Min velocity needed to shoot my cast loads for .223 in the AR is right at 1875 fps for full function. Any slower no lock back on empty mag. I don't powder coat mine so I try to keep velocity at 2000 fps or less.

[xacex]

Since you have not built this gun yet have you considered doing a 9mm AR? I know the PSA upper is a great deal and all, but I have found people really like my 9mm AR above all other calibers including 300 BLK for fun shooting. I load down the mihec 359-125 hollow-point to subsonic, add a suppressor and have loads of cheap fun at .03 cents a round with recycled lead and red dot. Much more entertaining than .22lr. Low recoil, quiet, cheap to reload, and no gas checks to deal with using powder coat. When you are tailoring your 9mm loads to your gun I found the longer barrels were quieter that the real short ones. A 16" would work fine and have the least recoil, or if you have a SBR stamp or can do a pistol build I found the 10.5" about perfect for what I like. The 4.5" is loud, and does not suppress well.

[pacomdiver]

anybody try the Heavy Mold 62g ones? ive got a mold that I started to cast with, got some powder coated and gonna load some up to try