Ok, It seems like the consensus on surplus ammo is that the primers are the wildcard. The bullets seem to be consistent and I thought the powder charges were, until tonight. Pulled down some and had differences up to.7 gr. What do you guys think? Is this consistent with your experience? Anyway, averaged out the powder and reloaded the stuff into boxer primed cases, hoping to get some good results, been fighting this one for awhile.
]Why does anyone need an assault rifle? My first need is articulated in the US v Miller 1939 decision: every citizen eligible for volunteer or conscript military service, every member of the unorganized militia, should be familiar with his nation's military service rifle, and the service rifles of potential allies and foes as well, to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic.
We need more information such as year, caliber, and country of manufacture.
I have been pulling down surplus for years, and like you, balance and reduce the powder a bit, then load it into a Boxer primed case.
Then those IFFY primers and Military cases, I would load up with cast bullets, using a shotgun powder or pistol powder.
Most fired, and shot well with cast boolits.
The boxer surplus, I would save for reloading.
The Steel Cases I would chuck.
But the Brass cased Berdan primed cases I would save.
Those, I sometimes did find some Berdan primers that fit.
On others, I converted them to Boxer Primers, and shot them with cast boolits as much as 20 reloads.
The steel cases weren't worth messing with.
They didn't resize well, were hard on my dies, and split after the second reloading or had signs of impending case head separation from stretching in the Shoulder area, not the base.
Steel just ain't malable enough to keep reloading.
Well, this batch was corrosive 7.62x54r, 148gr steel core with the copper washed steel cases.
]Why does anyone need an assault rifle? My first need is articulated in the US v Miller 1939 decision: every citizen eligible for volunteer or conscript military service, every member of the unorganized militia, should be familiar with his nation's military service rifle, and the service rifles of potential allies and foes as well, to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic.
Was there a problem with that ammo that needed you to pull em?
If I pull that same ammo I just save the bullets toss the powder in the garden and pop the primers in a outside fire then couple days later throw them in the steel bin.
Military ammo can run the gamut of absolute junk to match grade quality.
It's really luck of the draw as I've seen both Commonwealth and German ammo of both extremes. To be honest, Warsaw pact ammo has usually been on the left side of the bell curve. Powders have proven to have wide variations in extreme spread and standard deviation and the bullets have been inconsistent in most parameters. For plinking though, it's all good once you dump the steel cases. In watching many of today's latest generation, accuracy is not part of the goal so I guess in many ways it's no big deal. The current Russian commercial ammo is reported to be good, but that's outside this discussion.
The most consistent ammo over the years in my experience has been US manufactured military ammo, but there have been a few lots that were just machine gun ammo. I pulled thousands of M118 bullets and replaced them with SMKs to make Mexican Match ammo for NM competition with good results. Belgian FN M2 Ball ammo is also very good for overall quality with powder that seems to be between 4895 and 4064 in burn rate.
My son at one time contracted with a custom ammo maker and we pulled I don't know how many thousands of bullets. In addition to his pay, we often kept the powder or the bullets or both depending on the needs of the loader.
Don't throw that powder away! If you collect enough of it, Soviet 7.62 X 39 powder works very well in the smaller 30 caliber cartridges like the 30 Remington, the 30/30 and the 30/40 Krag with cast boolits. The above mentioned FN M2 Ball powder is excellent as a substitute for 4895 or 4064 in the mid size 30 calibre cartridges. Thanks to the Soviets and the Belgians, I'll never have to buy powder for my 30 calibre rifles again when duplicating loads with 3031, 4895 or 4064.
Last edited by Scharfschuetze; 02-05-2016 at 02:48 AM.
Keep your powder dry,
Scharf
Nothing wrong with the ammo, just needed some j words and since this stuff shot the standard 3-4 inch groups,in an as issued rifle, thought I would do a little checking, and I figured there would be some variation, but that much actually surprised me. No intentions of wasting the primed milsurp cases, just doesn't fit into what I'm doing right now.
]Why does anyone need an assault rifle? My first need is articulated in the US v Miller 1939 decision: every citizen eligible for volunteer or conscript military service, every member of the unorganized militia, should be familiar with his nation's military service rifle, and the service rifles of potential allies and foes as well, to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic.
I pulled a batch of 1955 vintage Yugo 7.92x57 because I had experienced some hair raising case splits blowing back into my face and gas cutting the bolt face of my K98.
The powder charges were the most consistent I have ever seen in military ammo, virtually every charge was bang on the money at 41.5gn.
Which is probably why it shot so consistently.
I reduced the charge to 40.0gn and reloaded into Privi boxer brass.
ukrifleman
I've got nearly 12lbs of Soviet-era 7.62x54R powder stored away that I use for bolt-rifle loads in most of my 30 cal and 8mm rifles. I find it operates well as a medium-slow stick powder like 4064 but I haven't tried to build a load in my ARs or my Garand yet. The bullets themselves have become my plinker bullets when I'm not shooting cast in my enfields, mosins and T99 arisakas.
I Cast my Boolits, Therefore I am Happy.
Bona Fide member of the Jeff Brown Hunt Club
I pulled down some 8MM corrosive and I averaged out 5 due to inconsistent powder weights between the pulls. Weighed the mess of powder from 5 then divided it by 5 and got my grain weight. Tossed the brass (corrosive primer) and reloaded the pulled bullet on WW cases with a modern primer and adjusted powder charge. They shot fine.
You can miss fast & you can miss a lot, but only hits count.
I do it like LAGS.
I have a case of 7.62x54R, Czech silver tips. BXN65 in green lacquer steel cases. This ammo is know for its accuracy but almost every group I shot had a flier. Not real bad but just enough to take a 1.5" group to 3 or 4 inches.
I pulled and weighed a sample lot of the powder charges paying very close attention to the powder and the weight to make sure that it was the same powder. (I have heard of people finding different types of powder within the same case of ammo.)
I took an average of the charge weights and made that my charge weight. This way I never run out of powder. I loaded the powder (new average charge weight) into boxer primed brass cases of course with fresh primers.
The results were as I hoped. No more fliers !!!!!!!!!!!!!
I took the primed steel cases and loaded my subsonic cast loads in them. They all worked just fine except one. The primer failed to ignite.
So from this experience I have to agree that if there is a weakness related to surplus ammo, in this case 7.62x54R, it's the primer.
Motor
And if they are Corrosive Primers, then just wash out your barrel properly.
You will mostly be shooting them for plinking, and there should be no excuse to not clean your barrel right away.
How many MN's and Mausers that you have are 50 to 80 Years old, and still in fairly good shape.
That is all they ate for all those years, and they lasted with proper care.
So what is a hundred or two corrosive primers going to do to your rifle if you clean it right.
Years ago, I bought a case of the 8x57mm that ukrifleman references above. The label taped in my reloading notebook for 8x57 is identical to the one in ukrifleman's post. I had read on net sites about case failures with it, but I fired about 400 rds. until I had one split through to the primer pocket, again like ukrifleman's photo. I then decided to pull down the remainder and load into commercial cases with WLR primers. I checked fifteen rounds, and found an average charge weight of 41.3 grs. Bullet weight varied more than powder weight, ranging from 196.8 to 198.9 gr. Even after evening out the powder charge at 37.0 gr. I only got mediocre accuracy, but good enough for my needs (clay targets on the berm at 100 yds.)
Just today I fired a 5-shot, 7/8" center-to-center group at 100 yds. with my No4Mk2 using Portugese FNM 71-1 ball ammo. It wasn't a fluke based on other groups in my notebook with that ammo in that rifle.
My M39 Finn shoots well enough with any old eastern European ball ammo that I haven't bothered to work up handloads for it. I'm sure I could do a bit better with jacketed handloads, but for plinking purposes why bother when i'm shooting ammo I bought years ago for what is now just a couple of cents more than .22 LR prices?
That yugo 8mm is hot hot hot. Cant shoot it in my hakim but did in boltguns. Had way tomany hang fires. Still have a bunch of boxes. Prob just pullem
I had shot alot of the portuguese 308-7.62X51 that was importend in in the 80s and it was very accurate ammo for 200 and 300 yd shooting. It did loose out at 600 though. We were buying this ammo for around $150.00 a thousand at the time. Berdan primed brass cases and 150 grn fmj bullet. Was good ammo. Militaries set an accuracy standard for ammo to meet from standard rifles normally and as long as it is met. I think us ball ammo was 4 1/2 or 5" at 300yds alot of variation and it can still meet this in most rifles. Another consideration is the lot size most military armories run for a given caliber. Loading thousands of rounds a day the mean variation is going to go up some just from flukes. We can take the extra time to weight each and every charge maybe trickle up to dead zero on a scales, the factories and armories cant take that kind of time and meet thier deadlines and quotas.
I would recommend that you dump the gunpowder for that particular batch of ammunition. I have written extensively on the thermo chemistry, life time, and dangers of old gunpowder. Gunpowder ages, it has a shelf life, a very uncertain shelf life. Generally speaking, the stuff starts to go bad around 20 years and gunpowder over 40 years old is very suspect. That surplus ammunition is on the market because some ammunition technician went through that lot, and by his inspection procedures determined that it was past its shelf life and had the stuff scrapped. Ammunition is expensive so the stuff is tossed when it is too dangerous to issue to troops or too dangerous to keep in storage.I pulled a batch of 1955 vintage Yugo 7.92x57 because I had experienced some hair raising case splits blowing back into my face and gas cutting the bolt face of my K98.
The issue you found is something called burn rate instability, that is as gunpowder deteriorates, it does not burn evenly anymore. The powder grain physically breaks down as gunpowder breaks down. The unevenness of the deterioration causes conflicting pressures waves that interact to create high pressure. This will only get worse in time. Firearms have been blown up with old ammunition and old ammunition will blow up firearms in the future.
Also, dump the stuff, don’t keep it in the house as once decanted from the shell, and stored in bulk, it is a great hazard for auto combustion. You know that the stuff is old and deteriorated by the fact you are having pressure issues. What you probably don’t know is that the deterioration of gunpowder is auto catalytic. In bulk, old gunpowder will heat up to the point that it will burst into flame. Once gunpowder reaches the point of causing corrosion cracks, pressure problems, or God Forbid, is fuming red nitric acid gas, it is dangerous to store, as it is ready to burst into flame. It is not so much a risk in the case as the case tends to whisk away heat, but decant the stuff from the cartridge case into a bulk container, the possibility of self combustion is very real.
Usually in between. As you stated, Com-Bloc ammo has had a lot of questionable storage issues.Originally Posted by Scharfschuetze
There was a boatload of Turkish Mauser ammo about 15 years ago. That stuff was all over the board. Some looking quite good, and others with deteriorated brass and spilled powder.
The M-72 Lake City match ammo was good stuff and is all gone. Jeff Bartlett had supplies of the M-118 up until about 15 years ago. They're all gone as well.
I was able to score a small stash of once fired LC match .30-06 about the time Bartlett still had available promo's.
SHiloh
Je suis Charlie
"A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves."
Bertrand de Jouvenel
“Any government that does not trust its citizens with firearms is either a tyranny, or planning to become one.” – Joseph P. Martino
“If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert , in five years there would be a shortage of sand.” – Milton Friedman
"Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns; why should we let them have ideas?" - J. Stalin
Man I miss the mill surp ammo. Seems like it's all dried up for the time being. All I'm seeing is overpriced .308 and 7.62x39. Both can be found cheeper for steel case new ammo
Plus one on all above. Suplus ammo is great when it shoots good. Unfortunately it could have been mishandled at some point in its life. So far I have had good results. I did have some Pakistani 303 the entire box had a consistent 5 second hang fire but very accurate. When brass cases split it usually means it was stored inproperly maybe in an ammonia environment or other factors, seen this with factory civilian ammo stored in barns. If you can buy a small lot and try it, ask about the ammo. If you are weighing the powder charges weigh the j-thingys too you may be suprised as to how close or how far out to lunch may be as well.
Got a bunch of the BXN 68 silver tip Chezk (LpSz) ammo too, figured the fliers were from the amount of powder fouling. That is accurate ammo in the right rifle, but gets the gold medal for filth and stink.
Be wellu
Last edited by leebuilder; 03-14-2016 at 01:47 PM.
When you read the fine print you get an education
when you ignore the fine print you get experience
I bought 3000 rds. of that Turkish 8mm and still have about 2800 of them! The first few shots caused me a little heartburn due to the slamming recoil and muzzle flash......then I found the others had the same experience because that stuff was loaded HOT. The idea was that it would function belt fed weapons and still be usable in rifles, so stocking two different rounds (ala WWII Japanese) was unnecessary.
I pulled the bullets, weighed the charges and found them to be pretty consistent. I then reduced them by a full 15%.......which brought them down to tolerable and still accurate. The powder was the typical European large, square flake and showed no signs of deterioration. The brass cases were nice so I saved all the fired ones, found some Berdans and reprimed.........then use them for cast loads.
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