Lots Of Cities Have The Same Lead Pipes That Poisoned Flint

[OilyPablo]

Obama blamed this on Republicans.

But I'm all about getting the lead pipes out and in the smelting pot.

[RogerDat]

The one thing I heard different than the other Mich. resident explanation is the federal EPA was trying to get the Mich. DEQ and Flint city officials to take anti-corrosion treatment steps but felt it lacked the legal authority to force them.

Also Detroit cancelled the contract to supply water when Flint decided they would participate in a future water authority that would draw water from lake Huron. This was going to take three years. Detroit Water Authority tried to get the state legislators to bar Flint from joining with other communities and creating a new water authority, it failed to convince the legislators that they should intervene to prevent a "water war". As soon as Flint declined the final offer from Detroit intended to convince Flint not move to the new authority Detroit exercised its one year end of service notification. Since it was going to take three years for the new pipes and system to come online so Flint had no choice but to come up with another source for two years.

This desire to form a water authority separate from Detroit had roots in saving money but they had no choice about changing to Flint river once Detroit cut them off in retaliation. No reason for Detroit to not make the money from supplying Flint for those final three years but I think they were pissed that Flint might end up in a position to become a water provider to the communities north of Detroit that were currently customers of Detroit Water Authority.

Michigan DEQ had no reason that I have ever heard to not do the corrosion prevention they kept arguing they did not need to even as evidence mounted that it was needed. It is almost like once they had not done it they had to insist there was no reason for needing to rather than admit they were mistaken and act to address the problem. Or maybe the city just did not want to spend the money. If issue had been addressed as soon as the Dr. at childrens hospital brought it to their attention the cost of switching back to Detroit Water would not have been required. The Flint water had a more corrosive PH and higher salinity and they just did not deal with it.

[freebullet]

I love it when plumbers I know call with salvage lead pipes. It's mostly old waste lines and near pure.

[starmac]

This may sound stupid, but is lead water pipes really widely used in that part of the country? I ask because I have been involved in several water line replacement jobs over the last 40 years, both mains and residential lines. I have seen lead sewer lines, but never ever seen a lead fresh water line, neither a main or even to just a house. I know lots of fittings (small ones) had lead in them, actually up to a year or so ago, but just have never seen an actual lead water line, and have pulled out some antique stuff.

[Rick Hodges]

My understanding is that lead pipe was used in water systems up until the 50's. Lead solder was used until '85 and all brass is 8% lead (even modern fittings) and it can leach when exposed to acidic water.

[jonp]

after giving this a little thought.
the EPA's 'war on lead' would play right into flint's hands if they do this right.
their entire water delivery system could become a federal superfund sight and be replaced for them.
they just gotta play this whole crisis thing up enough to the media.
too bad the voting in ohio is coming up so soon, their 'plight' errr crisis would get a lot more traction with the media.

I doubt your the first one to think of this, Run5, and that includes the Mayor and Gov. You know, Never let a crisis go to waste and all that

[jonp]

The one thing I heard different than the other Mich. resident explanation is the federal EPA was trying to get the Mich. DEQ and Flint city officials to take anti-corrosion treatment steps but felt it lacked the legal authority to force them.

Also Detroit cancelled the contract to supply water when Flint decided they would participate in a future water authority that would draw water from lake Huron. This was going to take three years. Detroit Water Authority tried to get the state legislators to bar Flint from joining with other communities and creating a new water authority, it failed to convince the legislators that they should intervene to prevent a "water war". As soon as Flint declined the final offer from Detroit intended to convince Flint not move to the new authority Detroit exercised its one year end of service notification. Since it was going to take three years for the new pipes and system to come online so Flint had no choice but to come up with another source for two years.

This desire to form a water authority separate from Detroit had roots in saving money but they had no choice about changing to Flint river once Detroit cut them off in retaliation. No reason for Detroit to not make the money from supplying Flint for those final three years but I think they were pissed that Flint might end up in a position to become a water provider to the communities north of Detroit that were currently customers of Detroit Water Authority.

Michigan DEQ had no reason that I have ever heard to not do the corrosion prevention they kept arguing they did not need to even as evidence mounted that it was needed. It is almost like once they had not done it they had to insist there was no reason for needing to rather than admit they were mistaken and act to address the problem. Or maybe the city just did not want to spend the money. If issue had been addressed as soon as the Dr. at childrens hospital brought it to their attention the cost of switching back to Detroit Water would not have been required. The Flint water had a more corrosive PH and higher salinity and they just did not deal with it.

Thanks for the best, concise history of the problem I've read. It doesn't seem to me to be a simple job of just laying a pipe into a river and start pumping water. Wouldn't it have been easier for Flint to get an emergency injunction from a federal judge to stop Detroit from cutting off water to an entire city out of what amounts as spite? Public health was involved in this.

[DLCTEX]

There are lead water meter loops in Wheeler, Texas. The head of the water dept. told me that there is no threat due to our water being alkaline and they only change them out when they become defective. I have been given them to make boolits.
I had suspected that acidic water was the problem with Flint's water. If a guy in Texas knows acidic water is a problem with lead pipes, why was this missed? Reporters are lazy if they haven't dug deeper to find the cause. There are few real reporters left.

[RogerDat]

There are lead water meter loops in Wheeler, Texas. The head of the water dept. told me that there is no threat due to our water being alkaline and they only change them out when they become defective. I have been given them to make boolits.
I had suspected that acidic water was the problem with Flint's water. If a guy in Texas knows acidic water is a problem with lead pipes, why was this missed? Reporters are lazy if they haven't dug deeper to find the cause. There are few real reporters left.

That is the major issue. People in EPA, Children's Hospital director, researchers testing the water and even city workers were telling the state agency that the acidic water with higher salinity was a big problem, they (state DEQ) kept insisting it wasn't enough to worry about. To some extent Flint was under state control due to having financial problems. People knew but the state agency with ultimate authority/responsibility stuck their head in the sand or refused to acknowledge past mistakes. Almost like a little boy caught doing something wrong and keeps doubling down on lies trying to avoid admitting first mistake.

I will hope some extra lead flows into the recycling stream for our uses but I would put the probability as low. Disturbing the lines to replace them causes all other lines in the vicinity to experience vibration and jarring that cause the protective coating of sediment and crud to be knocked loose which takes more particles of lead into the water. Essentially have to replace entire run from first piece of lead pipe to the last piece connected to it. Even then some extra filtration would probably be required during the process. May see pipe getting replaced in some of the areas where the houses have extremely high readings for lead if they don't go down into safe levels. But typically as Texas poster pointed out lead pipe is replaced because that section of pipe is being replaced and it happens to be lead.

[Geezer in NH]

Heck in the city in MA I worked on the FD we still had Wood water mains put in before the war of American Independence. Lead was the newer pipes! The water dept kept the water ph and added calcium or whatever that coated all the lead pipes so none would leach into the water.

That included city pipes and private owned pipes in buildings and the solder that was used in latter installations. But that was departments and politicians that paid attention unlike Flint,

[.22-10-45]

I work in Flint, but do not live there. Both Grandparents lived in city, in those days, Flint was treating the river water..I hated the tast of the stuff compared to our wellwater..later the city switched over to Detroit water system (lake Huron water). What changed? Right after the city started using river water, I noticed when washing hands at work, there was so much chlorine fumes coming off water, I thought I was at a public pool! I understand they had to add so much to disinfect the polluted water. You see, there were and are countless abadoned homes in Flint.... Water lines left unused for decades with stagnant water sitting in them now had somehow been flushed into regular system. I don't buy the corrosive water from river speil..it wasn't corrosive in the 1950's & 60's when the city was a booming auto industrial power....( and the big auto plants were running their wast water directly into it)... I think it was the need to kill the bacteria using vast amounts of chlorine and other chemicals that started the leaching process.

[10-x]

First real job I had was at the water department back in the 60's. Not sure, and really don't care what's in the ground there now but if the epa, tree huggers and other environmental ijdits would have seen them they would have fainted, or had a hissy fit. Used to be concrete and tin( lead) layered pipes all over(transite,IIRC) and big ones 16" dia. and just plain old lead pipes. Lots of cast iron pipes with lead wool tamped joints at each bell( special tool and skill to tamp a joint). For crying out loud, wish I could go back and just pick up the scrap pure lead we left in the hole(s) or threw in the trash. Oh well, that was then, we have all the new PVC stuff made from all kinds of chemicals, rather have lead.

[quail4jake]

Look how well Gov't regulatory agencies work! This, of course, is good reason to expand government and add more regulation...The truth is that within the scope of reason Gov't regulation has an important function but I think we're many years post reason! I would like to get some of that pipe that now will be replaced but I think we should keep that discrete as a lead "witch hunt" is likely to begin from this. Could legislation be passed that prohibits having any lead in private homes? I'll bet a stick of Carnuba Red that some folks would lobby for that and the danger is additive forces of the reactionary uneducated crowd aligned with anti gun groups and self serving bureaucrats creating a firestorm of anti lead panic. The salvation from this sort of thing is often another disaster to garner the attention of the well meaning empty tin cans; a bad storm, an oil spill, large foodborn outbreak or some other cause around which they can rally, all join hands and sing "Koom by yaa". The steady voice of reason offering realistic solutions is frequently inaudible above the din of emotionally charged, entitled activists placing unrealistic demands on failing government services while making no effort to help themselves or others. That's why I like to fly below the radar. I'll buy all the lead pipe I can but no ne needs to know!

[Bad Water Bill]

"Obama blamed this on Republicans."

So ask him which party has RULED both the City and County he lives in for OVER 100 years?

Guess what kind of pipe is leading into the building he owns in Chiraq?

There must be 99% of the homes in Crook County with lead piping leading into each and every home built since about 1900.


PS

There are inexpensive filtration systems available to eliminate these toxins.

Do your own homework and find one near you.

[jonp]

Why is the water acidic with a higher salinity? Where does Detroit get it's water from and why is that not acidic. This whole thing seems like one whole bunch of hysteria to me. I even heard one genius screaming that "people are dieing from the water". Odd, must have missed that in the media and lead poisoning unless severe does not kill people.

[gwpercle]

And we thought it was the peeling lead paint the children were eating....

News media loves an alarmist story...lets spread the hysteria !

[RogerDat]

Why is the water acidic with a higher salinity? Where does Detroit get it's water from and why is that not acidic. This whole thing seems like one whole bunch of hysteria to me. I even heard one genius screaming that "people are dieing from the water". Odd, must have missed that in the media and lead poisoning unless severe does not kill people.

Detroit gets water from Detroit river which is essentially part of the great lakes. Flint river is an inland river flowing to the great lakes. Eventual source for Flint water supply is going to be Lake Huron which is one of the Great Lakes.

Further Detroit has a well established process to treat the PH of the water it treats so that it does not leech lead from pipes. Some Flint homes are literally getting water that qualifies as toxic waste. E.G 15 parts per billion is cause for remediation. There have been measurements of 5000 parts per billion, this is toxic waste and if you drink it will at the very least have a strong negative impact on your health even if not immediately fatal. Heck at that level taking a shower in it would be probably be more lead absorbed than years worth of casting. Many houses are testing in the 100's of parts per billion.

It was a monumental screw up. The state agency with authority and responsibility for the water quality screwed the pooch. Just as metal will rust quickly if you remove the paint protecting it so will lead leech rapidly if you run water through the pipe with a PH sufficient to remove the coating that seals the lead. The reason the state bears most of the blame is it was a state agency that screwed up, not the city council, not the mayor. The state DEQ (Dept. of Environmental Quality) further the city was being run by an emergency manager appointed by the state governor. When the city tried to go public the initial reaction was it was all "political" this contributed to the delay in fixing the problem.

Lead pipes not the problem. Flint river not the problem. Improperly treated Flint river water run through the lead pipes is the problem.

I don't know about "hysteria" but I'm pretty sure if your kids or grandkids were getting that water you might have at the least "grave concerns". You know the part that pisses me off is a department to monitor and help maintain water quality in the state seems to me a legitimate state agency, with a legitimate purpose. How in the heck did they manage to do such a bloody awful job of it? You know those posters, the ones that say "You had one job".... https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...c7V9svKFR4M%3A

[Rick Hodges]

I am sure I would have grave concerns for the health of my family...but I certainly wouldn't be running around saying its it because I am black that this happened. The race baiting is is pure BS. Kildee saying if the city were are "different color" this would never have happened is beyond the pale. DEQ screwed the pooch and EPA acquiesced to their judgement. This needs to be fixed. But I would like to point out that Flint is just a little over 1/2 black, this problem cuts across race and political lines. How does the race baiting help get this fixed?
Turning this into an attack on emergency managers and the state trying to restore solvency to bankrupt city/school district finances is just crazy. Maybe the State should just let them go under. All of them. They run themselves into the ground with inefficient and corrupt leadership and then expect the rest of the state to bail them out.

[Hickory]

I suspect that many people who consume lead in this manner will suffer from a type of neurological disorder that will cause them to vote democrat the rest of their lives.