I am looking at working up a very accurate load for my AR. I am trying to see how accurate it is since the barrel is supposed to get better results than I have been getting. I was considering using Benchrest primers but would they get me any more consistency or accuracy? Any opinions?
Last edited by Boolit_Head; 01-26-2016 at 07:56 PM.
On every question of construction let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text or invented against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed.
Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Johnson, June 12, 1823
Bench Rest Primer manufacture Is supposed to be held to a higher standard of production.... I have yet to prove that they are correct: But I do use them when I can Find Them! ( At a low price that is!) But for Shooting them in an AR Well it is your expense!
" Associate with men of good quality, if you esteem your own reputation: for it is better to be alone than in bad company. " George Washington
I shoot a fair amount of bench rest primers mostly for long range in an attempt to get the best standard deviations possible. Sometimes the best load is with standard primers and sometimes it with bench rest primers.
I can not tell you what primers or loads will perform best in your rifle but I can tell you that bench rest primers will not turn a 1 1/2" MOA gun into a 1/2" MOA gun.
How much is your barrel under performing?
Changing primers is a refinement once you already have a load which is shooting well.
Bullet quality is most important, then case prep and concentricity of cartridge assembly.
Any book recommended powder charge which is appropriate for the bullet weight and which cycles reliably should be accurate.
Tweaking the powder charge to find a "sweet" spot and changing primers are refinements once the basic load is well proven.
Without more information on your rifle, whose barrel, what twist rate, chamber type, whether SAAMI or NATO, and how you are assembling your ammo, type of sights, how rifle is being supported, range tested, how many rounds per group, I can't offer much.
Are you shooting a 20" AR or a shorter barrel? BIG difference!
Suggest firing ten-shot groups only at 200 yards. If the ten-shot groups are round, with dense centers, then you have something to go on. In a good barrel with good bullets, properly assembled, with the full sized AR getting X-ring 10-shot groups on the SR target using a low-powered scope off a good rest should be normal with properly assembled rounds using a single-station press.
The ENEMY is listening.
HE wants to know what YOU know.
Keep it to yourself.
Unless you are already shooting under 3/4 minute or so, using them is an unnecessary expense.
Look to other places in your loading and shooting.
M-tec's, it's custom build with a 16 inch Ranier 223 Wylde mid length 1:8 twist match barrel on a Rock Creek blank that is guaranteed to sub moa with match ammo. It's topped off with a Precision Armament M4-72 comp on a good BMC upper with a Seekins BAR hand guard. I'm using a Nikon 3x9 P223 scope with a CMC flat 3.5 pound trigger. I've tried a couple of bolts with no change. The gas block must have been tapping a previous handguard I tried because it quit throwing rounds wildly and settled when I switched it out.
Nothing I have shot so far has come close to that sub MOA result so I am trying to see what it will do. This combination of equipment should shoot better than I have been seeing so far.
Planning on some Hornaday 68 grain Match BTHP stuffed on top of some Varget if I can get my hands on some. It's been scarce around here. Cases are all trimmed up and matching Lake City head stamps. I was planning on doing a ladder load to find a sweet spot and then go from there. So far with some bulk bullets it seems to be around 2 to 3 MOA. I do have some doubts about the quality of the bulk bullets I bought to break it in with though.
With a previous bolt rifle I have been known to shoot a half MOA so I'm thinking it's the rifle or loads and not me.
Last edited by Boolit_Head; 01-27-2016 at 08:41 PM.
On every question of construction let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text or invented against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed.
Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Johnson, June 12, 1823
In my 1-7 hornady 68s were okay out to 300 yds but the 75 Hornady bthp match bullet really shined to 300 and 80 grn jlks at 600 yds. Varget or reloader 15 were my 2 top powders. The 69s may be on the short side for your 1-8 twist. My AR service rifle 1-7.7 twist, MAtch rifle 1-7 twist krieger, Wifes service upper 1-7.7 barrel and match upper 1-7 keiger all shined with the 75 grn hornady match bullet and 80 grn JLK. The 80s are loaded past mag length and single loaded. Try 77 sierras and maybe the 73 grn bergers also. Stay on the heavier longer side of bullets with your twist rate. Make sure gas tube isnt rubbing any where.
You didn't specify what bulk bullets you are shooting. I have very limited experience with bulk bullets. I did purchase some 55 grain cannelure V-max type bullets that shot very well. Claim was they were Hornady overruns. Only purchased 3K. I wished I purchased more.
I have shot a lot of USGI M193 55 grain ball. I have found this to be 1 1/2" to 2 1/2" MOA at best. If you are shooting 55 gain FMJ's these would be most likely the source of your issues.
I do use my NRA Highpower match rifles for shooting prairie dogs. I have had outstanding results with 55 grain Ballistic tips or V-max's in 7 and 8 twists. Way over spun but I haven't blown one up yet and they hold sub 1/2" MOA.
If you are shooting paper past 300 yards county gent advice is spot on with his recommendations.
Last edited by M-Tecs; 01-27-2016 at 11:19 PM.
My Remington 700 30-06 averages sub moa with any primer I tried but federal match have noticibly fewer fliers than Cci or Winchester lrp. Well worth the price for that gun.
"In God we trust, in all others, check the manual!"
Wish I could find some Federal LR Match primers, work quite well for me with some loads. Haven't seen any in quite some time.
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Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.
Don't know if Cabelas will still allow back orders but I've got 10K on back order, as no one ever has them in stock. A couple weeks ago Powder Valley had Federal 210's available, but I only want the 210M, so the wait is on. I think back order is the only way to go, as when the suppliers get the primers, they fill some back orders and nothing seems to be available for the person "looking".
2 to 3 MOA? That rifle need's work before doing the small tweeking thing's will help at all. I've tried BR primer's years ago and don't remember the result's. They were probably not good enough to stay with because I didn't. But I would try different primer's. For rifles H have on hand Rem, Win and very old Herter primer's. Remington and Winchester shoot very well for me but, those old Herter primer's blow them away. I had never seem such a difference in primer brand before! But settling down a 22 to 3 min rifle is going to take more than changing a primer!Originally Posted by Boolit_Head
I'll start at the end and try to be brief but will probably fail because I've chased the same tail. The rifle is a 16" flat topped bull barrel and ended up being supremely accurate.
It was my first AR-15, purchased in honor of Nancy Pelosi becoming Speaker of the House, before the primer and ammo crises.It's an Olympic Arms 100% factory rifle other than the trigger. I put a Nikon 3-9x40 BDC on it and bought a bunch of Remington white box ammo to break in the barrel. I was disappointed with the group size but hoped it would improve as the barrel smoothed out. Nope. Didn't happen. Once the brass was empty I started handloading with the bulk bullets I had purchased. I had 55gr fmj, 62 gr SS109 and 55 gr soft point. I tried all of the bullets. I tried Varget, BL-C2, H4895, H335, 3031 and 748 (maybe more; that's all I can think of at the moment), every primer I could get my hands on and various powder charges of the powders. All groups were 2.5"-4" no matter what I did. One day at the reloading bench I was repeating the futile task loading 55 gr fmjs and looked at an ancient box of Sierra 53 grain MatchKings a friend had purchased years before. I asked myself what I was saving them for, picked up a few and seated them making no changes to the press, die or powder charge. At the range the fmj loads gave the same disappointing results as usual so I loaded 5 of the SMKs. BINGO! The SMKs made one connected ragged hole. Going forward, I can shoot Hornady V-Max, Sierras or any quality bullet and get great results. Any Mil-Spec bullet gives the same patterns as described. Off of the bench it will consistently shoot 3/8-1/2" as long as I feed it good bullets.
With good bullets it shoots well regardless of the primer. I agree with Oldcanadice that primers may refine a good load but they won't make a bad load better.
David
Sometimes life taps you on the shoulder and reminds you it's a one way street. Jim Morris
Completely agree with this. I've whats left of a very old box of 180gr 30cal Herter bullet's. Tried them once and in a proven 30-06, I shot's pattern's with them. Shoot good bullet's!I'll start at the end and try to be brief but will probably fail because I've chased the same tail. The rifle is a 16" flat topped bull barrel and ended up being supremely accurate.
It was my first AR-15, purchased in honor of Nancy Pelosi becoming Speaker of the House, before the primer and ammo crises.
With good bullets it shoots well regardless of the primer. I agree with Oldcanadice that primers may refine a good load but they won't make a bad load better.
David
I've had good results wth Sierra 69, 77 and 80 Smk and Hornady 75M (Amax nor 80 smk will not work at mag length). I've had good luck with a load consisting of LC brass, Wolf SRM primer, H322 and a 77SMK.
VARGET is a good powder but a PIA. I was running it in a R700 PSS with typical remington chamber (long freebore) over a compressed load of Varget and had insufficient neck tension to keep the 75 Amaxs from growing. Additional neck tension blew out groups hence the change to 8208 and h322. H322 is alittle soft for an AR as 8208 can get abit spikey and lots are inconsistant requiring reworking loads.
Do yourself a big favor, pick up a box or 2 of Federal gold medal match ammo and shoot a few 5rd groups.
If it dosent shoot those well, you've probably got an issue with the rifle/scope/hardware.
If it does shoot well, you'll have an accuracy level to try and duplicate with reloads.
Trying all different variables all at the same time might get you somewhere,,,but it's almost 100% certain to be a VERY long trip.
Just my .02
Cheers, YV
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