Plain Base Gas Checks

[Tailhunter]

For the .357 I was using 18 bhn lead and a regular check made from aluminum. When I transitioned to the .44 pb with that same lead the soda can check tore all to pieces. I softened the lead to 16 and tried again.
My .357 and .44 like powder coated bullets for some reason, my 45/70 not so much. So I coat my .44 with some smokes. I left one bullet uncoated and ran it thru the cycle with the other coated bullets. I tested it for hardness when it air cooled. It was now 15 on the scale.
I use a spray lube and pre-size them. Then resize with the soda can checks on. I still get a torn up one now and again, especially it I get the bullet a little off center going into the NOE sizer. But the softer lead and the lube helps.
Accuracy is just a tad better with the check but I'm not totally convinced I need them. No leading either way. Maybe if I was pushing them a little harder the check may play a larger role.

[outdoorfan]

Check out 3030guy. I think he pushed those pb gc bullets in his 30-30 pretty hard, if I remember correctly.

[Tailhunter]

.44 mag

Powder coated and gas checked with soda cans.

[tjones]

Why waste your time with the flimsy coke can metal. I read the powder coating does everything you want in ending lead fouling by it self. -tj

[Forrest r]

Anyone got pictures of the face of their forcing cones after those pop can pb checks get done with them????

[Tailhunter]

Haven't shot any through a revolve,r so no I don't. Sorry.

[Tailhunter]

Just loaded some of my checked bullets into .444 marlin brass. Going to push them pretty hard to see how they hold up.

[longbow]

What weight boolits? What target velocity?

.444 can spit them out pretty good if moderate weight boolit so should be interesting to see how that goes.

Mind you, in my somewhat limited experience, so far I have found it much easier to get decent accuracy from larger bore (.44, .45-70) than small bore (.308 Win, .303 British) at similar velocities. In fact I used to load up my .45-70's using PB boolits (bare) at max. "J" boolit Marlin loads in the 1895 and to Ruger Siamese Mauser max for my Siamese Mauser and the only "failure" was my shoulder. I can't push PB boolits in a .30 cal that fast at all and GC boolits barefoot are a total failure... for me anyway.

Now, I would have to look at chamber pressures to see if they are similar or if the .30 cal. runs higher chamber pressure to achieve similar velocities to the larger bore guns. If the .30 cal. runs higher chamber pressure at similar velocities then that would explain some things.

I should have, but have not yet, made that comparison.

Longbow

[Tailhunter]

265 grains at 2200

[longbow]

That's spitting them out pretty good in my book. I will be looking forward to a field report.

[Tailhunter]

That's spitting them out pretty good in my book. I will be looking forward to a field report.

Ive decided to get a heavier bullet and go that route. Contacted accurate and asked him about a 300 grainer.

[aephilli822]

...I made one for standard gas checks.

...
Longbow

Can I assume the difference between the two (Plain Base and regular gas check makers) is that there is a larger difference in the diameters of the "ram" and the "mold" that form the discs into checks? (so as to accommodate thicker material)

[hockeynick39]

Anyone got pictures of the face of their forcing cones after those pop can pb checks get done with them????

............ummmmmm, no, why? Been shooting PBs with coke can gas checks for the past few years out of my Model 27, Model 57, Model 625 JM, and Ruger SBBH. Haven't noticed ANY issues. Have found a few checks laying on the ground after shooting and found a few still attached to the boolit after digging into a sand berm about 12" to 18" deep depending on velocity and distance from target (25-100 yds). Also shoot them out of my straight walled cases, .405 Winchester and .45-70 Gov't with no issues. Just started loading the PBs with can checks for .32 WS, .30-30 Win, .30-06 SPR, .30-40 Krag, .243 Win., and 6.5 x 55 SE with no issues.

[Dragonheart]

I have a question. Why would you want to go to the time and effort to make a thin gas check when you can simply powder coat the bullet and get the same results of a gas check?

[Seeker]

Anyone got pictures of the face of their forcing cones after those pop can pb checks get done with them????

Ohh my goodness! I never thought of my forcing cone! Really and seriously though....Why would the forcing cone look any differently after a pb check than a regular check? They are sized the same and are a lot softer than fmj ammo. I guess I don't understand the question.

[Forrest r]

Typical flashing (roof flashing) used to make gc's are around 20bhn. Popcan alloy is a little different, harder, around 35 to 40bhn. Popcan alloy can be work hardened also. Work hardening ='s bending/stretching/squeezing the metal.

Anyway allot of gc makers don't cut clean edges on their gc's. The end result is little fingers/slits of jagged metal sticking up on the edges of the gc's.

Not my picture but pb gc's with rough edges.
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=...e0c6f80711dfo0

Rounded edges are a beautiful thing, jagged edges well are just that jagged. The end result is a bunch of 40+bhn knife blades on the edge of the gc. Mild loads don't matter to much, full house loads on the other hand have allot more pressure. Couple that with the different lots of alloy used for cans vary in their magnesium/maganese content anywhere from the typical %2 clear up to 7%. Very rarely will you find/use the 7% alloy in the body of a can. Most of the time it's used for the tops and bottoms of the cans.

Why would the magnesium content be a concern??? Because when it's exposed to "fire" you know that stuff gunpowder creates. The gunpowder/fire has enough energy that the magnesium can start reacting with oxygen which it turn releases huge amounts of energy.

So now you have sharp hard edges made with a element that burns. I shot 1000's of them in different 357's and never had a problem. Used a 158gr bullet with 8.0gr of power pistol. Some typical pb checks/bullets that I use. Nothing fancy, not real clean edges but not real jagged either.

[IMG][/IMG]

Like I said, shot 1000's of them never had a problem. Same load, same lead alloy, same mold, same primer/dies/press/powder from same lot, same everything. Came back from a range session after running a little over 500 rounds thru a 6" bbl'd 586 and a 4" bbl'd dan wesson. Basically a typical range session plinking at steel, bowling pins, dueling tree & torso steel targets. Plain bullets with pb gc's and ben's red for lube.

[IMG][/IMG]

The 586 was a beater truck gun and the bbl was shot out so it didn't bother me to re-barrel it. The dw 4" bbl is still sitting around with the flame cut in it. I have 3 4" bbl's and just haven't bothered to put that bbl in the lathe and redo the forcing cone.

Anyway, 1 range trip and 2 burnt bbl's. The only thing I can figure is I got a couple cans made from an alloy that had allot of magnesium in it and caused the flame cutting on the forcing cones. I clean and inspect my firearms after every range trip. That flame cutting was not there before that day/range trip started.

I took all my pb bullets and melted them down. That's how I got started in powder coating. I still shoot that same 158gr bullet with 8.0gr of power pistol, but now I use coated bullets. The coated bullets don't need a gc, are a heck of allot cleaner and I they don't flame cut the bbl's.

That's why I asked about the forcing cones on your bbl's. I shot pb checks for a couple years with no problems and still use the standard al flashing checks in my 30cal's/35cal's/44cal's.

Not trying to start anything & I'm sure all of you have shot countless 1,000,000's of them in more calibers than I can remember. I am a little reluctant to do this post, it was an isolated incident I ran into. But it did happen and I quit using the pb checks because I didn't want it to happen again along with having no idea how to tell when the alloy/metal in 1 can has -2% magnesium and the next can has 7+% magnesium. Magnesium also gets down right wicked when it's around/burns with nitrogen. Magnesium and nitrogen were 2 of the main ingredients in the incendiary bombs used in wwII for firebombing cities.

I use/shoot allot of power pistol. I buy it in 4# jugs. I've used that same load for years and never had a problem with it. I still use that same load/bullet combo with coated bullets and don't have a problem. If anyone has an idea how those 2 bbl'd got flame cut in 1 range session, I'm all ears. That 586 I bought new in 87 and shot it enough to have to send it back to s&w in 2001/2002? and have the timing rebuilt in it. Got it back and shot it enough so that the bbl started loosing velocity for the same loads that had been used in it for decades.

Out of all those years and 100,000+ rounds in that 586, that bbl never had any flame cutting like that. When I sent it back to get rebuilt it did show signs of some flame cutting just starting in that same area pictured above. But back then I would buy cases (32#'s) at a time of wc820 & that pistol had several jugs of that powder ran thru it. So yes it did have some flame cutting but s&w re-cut the forcing cone and reset the bbl when they rebuilt the timing. It only took a couple 100 rounds that day with the pb checks to cut that bbl enough to turn it into scrap metal. I've never had the problem since that day, same powder/primers/bullets/ same everything except the pb checks. And that's in 8 other 357's.

Anyway, that's why I asked. If I'd know about the alloy/bhn of that alloy/magnesium content in the pb checks, I'd of never started using them to begin with. But that's just me.

[Dragonheart]

Why waste your time with the flimsy coke can metal. I read the powder coating does everything you want in ending lead fouling by it self. -tj

tjones: I asked the question as to why gas check a plain base bullet and so far no one has responded. You are absolutely right there is no reason to go to this effort when you can powder coat and end up with a polymer jacketed bullet.

[hockeynick39]

tjones: I asked the question as to why gas check a plain base bullet and so far no one has responded. You are absolutely right there is no reason to go to this effort when you can powder coat and end up with a polymer jacketed bullet.

Honestly, why would I powder coat my bullets with another chemical when there are soda and beer cans laying all over the roads? Why would I go to the effort of making little gas checks out of my soda cans when the weather is too nasty to shoot or do anything else? Because, that is what I want to do, this is why we have options. It's not a race, it's just fun and food. Some people just don't get that I suppose.

[Dragonheart]

Honestly, why would I powder coat my bullets with another chemical when there are soda and beer cans laying all over the roads? Why would I go to the effort of making little gas checks out of my soda cans when the weather is too nasty to shoot or do anything else? Because, that is what I want to do, this is why we have options. It's not a race, it's just fun and food. Some people just don't get that I suppose.

Finally, I got an answer. It is something you just like to do, that's good enough. Your are right some people just don't get it.

[Tailhunter]

Everyone has their thing. Why should it matter so much if it isn't your thing.