What nose shape for 300-500yds?

[SgtDog0311]

john,
if you ever find an alloy that will allow a nasa bullet to ride the bore and yet seal the gas pressure you will have hit the payload for greasers with black powder.
please post info on that if you do.
keep safe,
bruce.

Not very productive back at the bench so glad to keep finding something of interest when I set down. Bruce, help me understand your meaning.

Didn't consider a NASA or know anything about the NASA until someone offered me some to test. But liked it just fine after looking around at images and dimensions (that was prior to Kurt's observation about ogives longer than the shank). One question I had was - upon ignition, as it moved forward would that wide lube groove let pressure escape? After mentally sketching it out I figured it like this, at least for a chamber without freebore. If both driving bands are .001 or .002 larger than groove, wouldn't the front band start to seal the groove nearly as fast as the rear driving bands would on any reduced-band bullet. Or am I overlooking the fact that I've intruded on a PP region of the forum, something I promised to do for the last time about four posts ago Spose it could be you are talking about a PP NASA???

Be interested in your thoughts even if I'm looking at it wrong. Well, especially if I'm looking at it wrong. Might as well learn something since I'm not getting much else done today.

[Chill Wills]

john,
if you ever find an alloy that will allow a nasa bullet to ride the bore and yet seal the gas pressure you will have hit the payload for greasers with black powder.
please post info on that if you do.
keep safe,
bruce.

Bruce, For what it is worth I can answer that question.

That bullet came about in a conversation with my one time shooting partner Klaus and DanT while we were at one of the early AZ matches. Klaus wanted a very high Bc bullet for is Browning BPCR re-barreled to 45-90 with this odd ball reamer gunsmith Mike Lewis sometimes used that had a very long throat. -A Strange design chamber but shot well.

Anyway - this was early in the conversations Dan and I had about GG induced drag and the need for full lube (enough lube) under the hot sun of a summer Longrange match. To sum up all those conversations, if you thought 0.3" of bullet shank should be grease groove to impart enough lube to do the job, you could design six - 0.050" long grooves, maybe three 0.100" grooves, five - 0.060" long grooves or anything else you heart desires. It was supposed by Dan that just one long 0.300" groove may result in the least turbulent drag from air passing the GG portion of the bullet. In other words, fewer speed bumps.

This theory stuff was always hard to prove by just sight settings and comparative windage settings at matches.

A year earlier Dan and I shot and roomed together at the World Creedmoor Cup held in Raton NM and on one of the days before the International Competition started I set up my two chronograph system to record the Bc of some common and not so common bullet designs. Dan was excited to get some of his theory tested. Our findings are not the last word on Bc but it did help to have some supporting data.

Back to the NASA bullet;
That next year Dan drew up Klaus's bullet. I looked at the print, a one groove bpcr design. Hmmmm....

Living on Colorado's western slope and shooting the monthly Watkins match east of Denver was a lot of miles and car time. Gunsmith Mike Lewis and I carpooled about a dozen years and talked about a lot of singleshot related stuff on those drives to and from. Mike was making molds in those days and he turned out that first NASA mold for Klaus. He was going to give it to Klaus at the Watkins match and Mike showed it to me in the car ride down the mountain. It was like nothing I had seen before or since to be truthful. The NASA bullets offered currently are not true to Dan's design. Close, kinda.... maybe because they have the one large GG.

That first bullet and some of the scores Klaus shot with it turned some heads. Another mold maker, Bernie R at Old West Bullet molds shot the monthly silhouette match I held in Rifle, Colorado. I asked Bernie to make me up 20 NASA molds in 45 cal and 20 in 40 Cal and I took them to the Nationals to sell. Almost all did and Bernie put the cherry in his lineup. They are good bullets but they are not exactly the same bullet as Dan's first design.

So what is the correct alloy to hold the nose? Klaus always shot straight wheel weights with only enough tin added to get the bullets looking good. Based on what he said he added for tin I don't think there was even 1% in the mix.

I guess this is getting off topic because this is the PP area... Sorry, these topics get a life of their own sometimes.

[Chill Wills]

Michael,
Btw... just talked to another good friend out there in Cheyenne. He said he gets to shoot with you sometimes. Name of Steve Anderson of the Wyoming Herford Ranch there on the edge of Cheyenne. Good fellah!
Thanks again for your input. Appreciate it!!

Okay, Sure, I see Steve and may again tomorrow at the silhouette match if he comes. Very good guy and I always enjoy talking with him.

[beltfed]

John,
As Chill Wills has pointed out: I forgot to mention
that per NRA CBH alloy studies, WW alloys level off at
their hardness at approximately 20 days of aging.
My motto: "Shoot no bullet before its time"
Similar to the motto of Orson Welles years ago on an ad:
"Drink no wine before its time"

My 9+1 allow will hold functional hardness quite well for yrs.
Noted also that Dan T's alloy of 97/1.5/1.5 was shown to
come up to max hardness and then hold steady for a yr or better.
beltfed/arnie

[Lead pot]

Well while you guys been figuring out your alloy temper I been busy casting. John this is what 400 pounds of ingots should look like
I need about another 5-600 for the upcoming season. These are all patched and ready for the cases.

Kurt
IMG_2922 by Kurt, on Flickr

[BRUCE MOULDS]

john and Michael,
yes we are a bit off topic, but this is important, and can also pertain to pp bullets a bit.
I have never used a nasa bullet, the reason being that bullets with less bore ride have always presented problems with the bore ride bumping into the rifling. this with 16:1 and 14:1.
the nasa is a case of the most extreme amount of bore ride that a greaser could have.
should I ever try to go there it will be a nasa with the entire bore ride section covered with micro mini grooves.
long bore riding noses have been tried with lyman no 2 in an attempt to avoid the problem, but that just plain did not work for the opposite reason.
it is too hard.
certainly the nasa would almost be like an arrow for stability with a major part of its drag potentially in the rear.
if you consider the shank as including the bore ride section and the gg section, then the ogive becomes shorter than the shank.
possibly a good bullet might be a nasa with the bore ride section patched to bore, but this would not work as keeping the patch on relies on the paper being folded under the base.
keep safe,
bruce.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

kurt,
you posted while I was typing.
the strength of your bench never ceases to amaze.
keep safe,
bruce.

[SgtDog0311]

Kurt, You really know how to put a guy in his place dontcha The truth hurts too. If this were a job I’da got fired yesterday.

Here is a picture that shows how far behind you I am. There are a few cubby holes (calibers) with a stack or two of sleeved bullets. But that’s it. Best case scenario is 450 bullets for the 38-50. I figure all of them together would last you a Sunday afternoon! Ha!!

I need to get giggy with it!

[SgtDog0311]

This one is for anyone to wade in on since I don't want to upset Arnie's apple cart as he passes it off to me. He was kind enough to send me some samples and I'll be experimenting with the two 40-65 chambers I have before making any decisions but can't help but ask myself these questions and after reading Bruce's comments my conjuring seems appropriate.

So, I'm a little paranoid about lube capacity. Arnie has something that works but I was wondering about moving the driving bands forward (expanding that length if you will) maybe as much as the .125 bore riding section and either increasing the driving band number by one or just opening up the lube length with the same number of bands.

My hesitation of course is upsetting that apple cart which is known to work. Specifically was concerned with increasing drag by loosing the mini-characteristic. And of course then I'd either have to lose the bore riding portion or change the nose profile by retaining it since I'd have to move it forward. I don't really like the idea of changing the nose profile since that is likely the chief feature enabling it's long range capability.

What would be the sage observations about those changes? Keep in mind it's just thinking out loud at this point.

For you Colorado boys, hope you have a good day today at your shoot.

[Gunlaker]

Are you wiping between shots? I suspect that a lot of grease grooved bullets have excess lube capacity for wipers. In the .40-65 I use the Baco 409400M4 bullet and have not had fouling issues ( even when others have shooting in the same relays ). That one has minigrooves for the shank which is about 1/2 the length of the bullet.

For what it' worth, I have the BACO .45 cal Money bullet that has really tiny lube grooves on the bore-riding section of the nose. I don't think the bullet is any better, or worse, than any of the other grease grooved Money bullets I shoot.

Chris.

[SgtDog0311]

Thanks Chris! I have everything needed to wipe but so far been getting away blowing. I probably need practice if I'm to change that up. The old hands make handling everything look easy but I find myself pushed to finish as is with allotted time. I have to use a turkey seat and sticks since my back won't let me get down. Also, none of the few matches I got to shoot this year were on hot days. I shot three with my 38-50RH and the Mos bullet which has good lube capacity. One was shot with an all original 40-63 and no issues but for the wind that was whipping me about like a flag. I don't count the Quigley since I wasn't satisfied with the loads I had and settled for Smokeless. Appreciate the comments on your mini bullet.

[Lead pot]

Something you might want to think about and that is the deeper the rumble strip the louder the rumble. A GG deeper then the groove is a waste of lube. It never gets in contact with the bore I have measured several times picking the spun off a GG bullet laying on top of the snow. You can see where the land tops grooved the lube just like you see on the side of a bullet. A wide shallow groove does more good leaving lube behind then a narrow deeper then the groove is deep in the barrel.
If you want a bullet with a lot of lube capacity and not get the drag of a normal GG You can knurl it. You can even knurl a GG and have the whole bullet covered that comes in contact with the bore. When a knurled bullet travel through the barrel the high points will smoothen out and leave the lube hind more then a GG. By weight the bullet carries more lube then a normal GG.
You take a NASA bullet for instant, Wide shallow GG with a knurl that extends up on the nose covering most of the dry lead that will come in contact with the bore. I just rubbed lube on these with my fingers, normally I pan lube them and that covers the grooves and knurls better.
I saw a shadow graph of bullets in flight of Jacketed, GG and knurled pistol bullets. I been looking for it but I cant find it on the web, But there was no difference of the shock wave between the jacketed and the knurled bullets, as well as the wash behind the bullet base.

[SgtDog0311]

Kurt, How do you put the knurling on the bullet? I've seen them but never seen it applied.

[Lead pot]

John I use the Corbin tool. http://www.corbins.com/hct-2.htm

[beltfed]

John, Kurt,
We can view the knurling as the next step beyond MicroMinigrooves
which, in turn are the next step beyong Minigrooves.
The thought in the micro/mini is that there is still plenty of
lube IF YOU ARE WIPING, AND, significantly lower "body drag"
than a bullet with larger, and deeper lube grooves.
Also, John, re. your idea to have another mini gg where the
bore ride area is: remember that section of the bullet is at bore dia.
I'm not sure how much added lubing you will get if you have a groove(s)
added forward into the bore ride section. Perhaps: It may indeed "sling" lube onto the bore
as it rides along. I have a 38 cal mold designed by none other than Richard Mann, which has a bore ride section with conventional lube grooves.
Remember also, the bullet taper, even in the forward
grooved dia, to enable it to be to be seated out for MORE POWDER and
thereby higher velocity. As said before, I have not had any leading
in shooting the existing E Mini bullet. But, again, as others have contributed,
Minigrooved bullets are not the best if you want to blow tube. I strongly suggest
wiping.
beltfed/arnie

[SgtDog0311]

Kurt... thanks!
Arnie, I always listen when more experienced hands say "strongly" in front of "recommend" or "suggest".

[Chill Wills]

Originally Posted by SgtDog0311
Michael,
Btw... just talked to another good friend out there in Cheyenne. He said he gets to shoot with you sometimes. Name of Steve Anderson of the Wyoming Herford Ranch there on the edge of Cheyenne. Good fellah!
Thanks again for your input. Appreciate it!!

Okay, Sure, I see Steve and may again tomorrow at the silhouette match if he comes. Very good guy and I always enjoy talking with him.

Here is an OT picture of Steve at a silhouette match yesterday in Wyoming spotting for a shooter using PaperPatch 22rf bullets - Okay, maybe I made up the part about PP to keep from going too far off the topic rails

[SgtDog0311]

Good picture. And you made interloping legal with pp 22. That looks like Greg. I could shoot the breeze with that Cowpoke all day. That accent and enunciating sounds like someone paper patched his tongue!! Sometimes he can even shoot! I see Steve has access to a real scope tripod. I need to work on that too!! Too much for a newby to get it all done at once. Thanks for posting!!