What nose shape for 300-500yds?

[Lead pot]

Bob. Yes, but you and I where raised about the same day and age when your Mom would tell you when somebody offers you to eat or drink something even if you don't like it you smile and say thank you and drink or eat it.

I cant answer your question about 1F compared to 2F. I just about never use 1F. But I have used 1.5 and 2F Swiss and KIK and there is not enough difference the way the bullet reacts.
Kurt

[BRUCE MOULDS]

1f swiss works very well in 45/2.4" and 40/72.
so does swiss 1.5, which makes life better.
keep safe,
bruce.

[SgtDog0311]

Ok, last incursion across the border into PP territory. You guys have been patient with me. And you can't blame me just because I want to hear what you think

Being a newcomer to BP and having trouble finding accuracy with a new bullet I wondered something similar but about OE. I started out shooting a 38-50RH in BPCR with 1.5f. Had these two 40-65s in the works so read where it looked like more umph called for a step up to 2f & grabbed what I thought was enough to get me through local BPCR this coming year as I went by BA. But now 'something' needs adjustment beyond the load and wondered if one of those might be a step back to 1.5F.

Now... one more touch on the help you guys offered concerning long ogive bullets. Figured I'd come out of the closet and tell you it's Beltfed Arnie's Elliptical Mini that I've got myself a little enamored with. There's no doubt that it's guilty of every concern mentioned. Thought I'd close the loop on those questions with these pictures. One is my first effort to render it. First time I ever attempted that nose profile so undoubtedly could improve on it. The other is a picture he was kind enough to give me.


I have some aspirations in more conventional directions as well but I guess I ran across this one one-too-many times.

[Gunlaker]

John, I have a PJ mold that cast a bullet that looks identical to that minigroove bullet. The mold that came with my .38-50. This fall I cast a few to see how they would fly, but haven't tried them yet. I think the bullet is likely too long for my 1:14 gain twist barrel.

Interestingly, the bullet that I do shoot is a Brooks paper patched prolate bullet that I breech seat. It is incredibly accurate at 200m. I've never tried the rifle at further distances.

Chris.

[Lead pot]

I shot with Arnie at Lodi and pulled the targets. Arnie shoot that bullet very well. I was in the pits when he shot a 99/3 @ 800 but at the 1000 the holes showed some oblong holes. He also shoots that bullet very hard with WW, Linotype, with tin added. I have not shot with Arnie shooting the PP bullet.

[beltfed]

Kurt, Thanks for the input. I had not recalled your mention at the time that some of my shots had oblong holes at 1K. --Not doubting your current recall...Nonetheless, that score at 1K was an 88/100. Not too bad for an old fart with a wimp gun.
It will be noted that I have had NO leading, thru these matches- a 99 at 800 after
having shot 25 plus rounds at 1k and 900 seems to show no problem.
No lead in the barrel after the match.
Notwithstanding that long ogive of the (get this Brent) Modified meplat Elliptical profile ogive/ Prolate nose and 0.125" bore ride. I don't think I have any slump to worry about.
My 9+1(90%/10%0 WW/Lino alloy is estimated at about:
94.5% Pb, 4.7%Sb, 0.8% Sn. Yah, I know--- it is just an estimate,based on averages of WW and Lino composition published in the NRA CBH and Lyman No 3 CBH.
Using the same alloy in the Double Dia Mod Prolate PP bullet John showed . Similar profile to the "E Mini' bullet. That one also does not lead and looks good so far with sub minute accuracy. Jim K did an excellent job cutting this mold exactly per my specs provided after he and Bob W agreed we would try the design. It is basically a knockoff profile of my "E Mini" from 2008 with appropriate dimensions for PP to provide a larger base dia(freebore/groove dia PP) for the typical freebore in our 40-65 chambers, with a forward bore dia PP forward body for added centering up in the leade and on the lands. Both the E Mini and the DDEPP bullets are seated only .125" or so in the case.
I had later learned that Bruce M from down under has also worked with two diameter PP bullets.
beltfed/arnie

But it works for me..
beltfed/arnie

[BRUCE MOULDS]

arie"s mileage is different to mine with that type of greaser.
however I never went harder than 16:1, and his alloy is obviously far more suited.
when I started getting success with dual diameter pp bullets, I thought I was the only one, but soon p.m. suggested that quite a few others, including arnie had come to the same conclusion.
a good way to turn a greaser chamber into a pp chamber.
it has always been known that more antimony than tin is the best alloy of this type, not only for stability of hardness, but also price.
I must try arnies alloy.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Lead pot]

Arnie, your spotter really let you down on the first relay for the 1000 or you would have finished in fine shape.

[SgtDog0311]

BPCR should be my primary focus (and I'm not putting that aside) but that Buffalo at the Q puts me to dreaming. I've been rightfully accused of chasing zebras when it should be horses I'm after but it has not spoiled my fun so far. Hopefully, with Arnie's help, of which there has been plenty, and for which I'm very grateful, I can master the alloy requirements.
I've plagued you all with questions over on http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...697-BPCR-alloy but the answers I'd fastened on may not work for this one.
Not sure how Arnie's hardness will compare with an alloy I can create with what I'm smelting today. Anxious to test it myself and answer that antimony question for pre 1980 wheel weights.

[Lead pot]

It doesn't take much antimony added to lead to hold the setback. My favorite alloy is a mix of 17# lead and a one pound of no lead solder, 95/5 tin antimony or one roll in 18# for the .45 PP I shoot in it. One thing to keep in mind when you switch to a PP that is patched at or slightly below bore the super hard bullets are not malleable enough to fill the grooves for proper rotation in a lesser caliber. For the GG it is a lot more forgiving to have it at groove or a thousand or two over groove.
This .44/.432" bullet was patched .001" over bore and cast with 1# roll of no lead solder and 17# lead behind 93gr of 1.5 Swiss.

[SgtDog0311]

John, I have a PJ mold that cast a bullet that looks identical to that minigroove bullet. The mold that came with my .38-50. This fall I cast a few to see how they would fly, but haven't tried them yet. I think the bullet is likely too long for my 1:14 gain twist barrel.

Interestingly, the bullet that I do shoot is a Brooks paper patched prolate bullet that I breech seat. It is incredibly accurate at 200m. I've never tried the rifle at further distances.

Chris.

Chris, I hope I have the same luck you have with your prolate. Please think of me when you do get round to shooting that 38-50/bullet. Would like to hear how it goes even if we are not apples to apples on twist, etc. I did order a NASA from Bernie for my 38-55. It would work in my 38-50RH too but so far I'm having good results with the Mos mold that came with that rifle. It knocks down RAMs just fine when the shooter is lined out. New guy here so I've had my issues but have knocked down six and ran a bank of five once when I'm not a cluster behind my sticks. Ran out of time once after coming to the line without sight settings and had a crowd gathered behind me trying to find dirt on the first five. Geeze, being a turnup can be embarrassing. But I am anxious to try that NASA in the 38-55. Up to now all I had was my LBT levergun bullet. But they were very accurate at least. I'll apply some of what I've learned hear concerning the long nose on that NASA. I'm not looking at the profile right now but if memory serves some of this transfers, no?

Another kind soul is sending me some NASA for the 40-65 too, along with a BACO Money and production Saeco. Should be some interesting winter months!

[SgtDog0311]

It doesn't take much antimony added to lead to hold the setback. My favorite alloy is a mix of 17# lead and a one pound of no lead solder, 95/5 tin antimony or one roll in 18# for the .45 PP I shoot in it. One thing to keep in mind when you switch to a PP that is patched at or slightly below bore the super hard bullets are not malleable enough to fill the grooves for proper rotation in a lesser caliber. For the GG it is a lot more forgiving to have it at groove or a thousand or two over groove.
This .44/.432" bullet was patched .001" over bore and cast with 1# roll of no lead solder and 17# lead behind 93gr of 1.5 Swiss.

Thanks for that Kurt. I processed some of those 1960 vintage wheel weights today. Too bushed to test for hardness but hope to find a clue tomorrow for whether the claim of 9% antimony has any truth to it. I've found that claim on a few of the fishing weight caster's sites as well as bullet casting sites. We'll see. The BHN should give a clue and maybe a roadmap for reaching Arnie's hardness. If that does not prove out then I'll be turning to Arnie's mix or some of your suggestions.

I can see where the 'hardness constraints' for PP could conflict with 'hardness requirements' for controlling setback and slump with the long ogive.

I'd like to think I'll get to the PP later this year but I have a lot of catching up to do having just started down this SS & Black Powder path.

[beltfed]

John,
The NRA CBH published about 1980 or so
showed the following from analyses of WW:
WWscrap 1970 5.08% Sb, 0.44% Sn
WWscrap 1974 2.54% Sb,0.21% Sn
WWscrap Jan1978 3.06%Sb, 0.25%Sn
New WW Apr'78 3.03% Sb,0.23% Sn
Sb-Antimony, Sn-Tin
I wonder about earlier yet pre-1960s WW being
as high as 9%?
beltfed/arnie

[beltfed]

Remember the scrap from 1970 above mentioned is
likely to be WW from the '60s , some likely to be even older.
beltfed/arnie

[SgtDog0311]

Thanks for that Arnie. And you have an excellent point about that collected being older vintage. Had not thought of that before.

Yesterday I did finish my smelting of the 1960s stuff and recovering today. Here is the post

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...CR-alloy/page2
recently condensed since I thought I'd made it tough to wade through and get to the question.

“I tested my pre-1980s WWs (16 hrs after smelting) with a Lee tester: debit with testing die measures .070 or 10.4 BHN. The Lee tester is the only one I’ve used so not sure how accurate my measures are compared to others but that’s what I have.

Also not sure how it changes over time so I’ll continue measuring at 48 and 72 hours.

Given Tom Myers observation that "composition of wheel weights to be 95.5% - 0.5% - 4.0% with a Brinell Hardnes of 9", what does a 10.4 bhn indicate for antimony content of these pre-80s WWs? If I can understand that %age I can move on to the question of how do I get desired hardness/alloy with what I have on hand using the 120lbs of pure lead I recently smelted and this pre-80s stock?”

I don't know how the added bhn could be extrapolated into antimony content so was hoping Tom Myers would weigh in.

By the way, regardless of how my blending turns out I'm tickled to have this done. Working on the ground is not easy these days and that was a lot to get done over two days of smelting. There is over 900lbs in this picture. Probably last one of you guys but a little while but it will last me a long time. 400lbs of recent WW and 400lbs of 1960 vintage on the right and 120lbs up on the bench next to the pots.

My main concern is to get to blend tough enough to match yours - and of course I was trying to refrain from more $$. I'm gonna see what Tom says if he sees it before I start to think about how to blend with what I have or simply go get some lino.

Thanks Again... maybe your post will stir some input from our friends.

Btw..
the Sheet lead on top was .1000 so dead soft.
the Modern WW hovers around 10 bhn
the old stock is the 10.4 (not yet aged)

So I'm guessing you are correct in your skepticism as I should be. Sorry for the orientation of the photo. Does that to me sometimes.

[SgtDog0311]

Just tested again... approx 44 hours into it and it is now .08 so indicates softer. I thought it aged in the other direction but been a while since I observed the change so maybe I was wrong there.

At any rate, looks like I'll need to add something to make my blend harder/stronger.

[Chill Wills]

John, Because I may not understand clearly, This ww alloy you hardness checked is not mixed but rather all old batch WW ?? Correct?

Straight WW will age harden over time if cooled in air. Air cooling with my 1980's era WW will produce a hardness about = to 30-1 Pb-Sn after one hour from cast.

By the time it has aged two weeks its yield strength has increased about 50%. This will = an alloy of Pb-Sn about 12-1 or 10-1. There is almost no difference in Pb-Sn hardness at this point - hardening is non-linear as the tin ratio goes up.

(as you likely know, BHN is a measure of yield strength)
For hardness to happen, lead, anatomy and some small fraction of a percent of arsenic is needed in the mix.

[Chill Wills]

There is a caster on here that will test your alloy for free - sorta - he gets to keep the one pound sample.

I do not remember his name - you might have to look for it - it will come up.

In your case, because you have a lot of good lead scrap, maybe getting someone to check the makeup would be good.
It is enough lead to make smart choices worth your wile.

[SgtDog0311]

Michael, Thank You, That is correct. Happened on a motherlode a fellah had as ballast in an old crane he salvaged in the 60s so I got 700lbs of it. That is how I dated it.

I question my readings but two yesterday were perfectly consistent (.70/10.4 BHN) and the two I took today (.80) were also perfectly consistent. I was surprised it got softer nearly 24 hours later but a friend (30 year caster) though surprised as me, told me to give it a week or more and he bet it would get harder. Also said he had better luck with bullets opposed to ingots for accurate measurements. Both readings were clear however.

I'd be thrilled to donate a pound of led for an accurate analysis because you so right about being certain. I'll poke around here and see what I can find.

I have 400lbs of the old and 400lbs of the newer WWs. And I have two objectives, one being something close the Dan T's antimonial allow and the other being an alloy good for Arnie's long ogive elliptical/prolate bullet. Pretty set on trying that or a very close proximity, depending how they fit in two different chambers. Hope to make one mold work for both if I'm lucky.

Btw... just talked to another good friend out there in Cheyenne. He said he gets to shoot with you sometimes. Name of Steve Anderson of the Wyoming Herford Ranch there on the edge of Cheyenne. Good fellah!

Thanks again for your input. Appreciate it!!

[BRUCE MOULDS]

john,
if you ever find an alloy that will allow a nasa bullet to ride the bore and yet seal the gas pressure you will have hit the payload for greasers with black powder.
please post info on that if you do.
keep safe,
bruce.