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Thread: What nose shape for 300-500yds?

  1. #61
    Boolit Buddy SgtDog0311's Avatar
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    Appreciate this thread!! I'm considering both an elliptical in 40 cal and trying some of the 97/1.5/1.5. Not necessarily at the same time but I suppose it could work out that way.

    Am I correct to gather that 1.5 x diameter for nose length is the optimal? The one I'm considering has .750 in front of a 1.25 bore diameter followed by first lube groove in a .408 groove. If I'm understanding this correctly 1.5 x .408 is .612 and if you were to include the 1.25 of bore diameter it would be even greater. Not sure that should be included but .750 is still greater than .750, so would backing off that be advisable?
    Best Regards,
    John

  2. #62
    Boolit Master
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    I forgot all about this post. I went with a Brooks elliptical nose..but in a nose-pour adjustable...I asked for the smallest sprue hole and nose flat is about .095" dia. I am so far limited to only 100yd. range so small flat probably doesn't matter. On a whim..I made up a nose punch with a small radius using a 1/8" ball end mill..I can swage nose flat to blend with ogive radius. bullets all patched up & ready to go last Spring..but a summer painting project turned into a major job that lasted well into Sept. Looking forward to this Spring to try them out.

  3. #63
    Boolit Buddy SgtDog0311's Avatar
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    I see I might have picked that 1.5 up from this excerpt of a Bruce Moulds post on a related thread:
    "it just so happens that the elliptical and metford/money noses have the least nose pressure in the transonic zone, where nose pressure (read drag) is at its maximum. with these nose shapes, maximum reductions of nose drag come with a nose length of 1.5 calibres".
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...nielson-bullet

    Further reading in that same post tells me the nose can be longer than 1.5 but the concern of slump should then be managed with harder alloy.

    Would still be appreciate any input on that length of nose. It obviously comes at a cost to the distance between center of gravity and center of pressure.
    Best Regards,
    John

  4. #64
    Boolit Buddy SgtDog0311's Avatar
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    .22-10-45, enjoy your Ballard. I shot my Pacific 40-63 with original bore at the Q this year. Used a hunting bullet profile of all things. Had a great time! I've shot a couple thousand cast in mine since I got it but been engaged with 40-65 for a couple months so it is taking a break for a while. Looking forward to more work with relined Perfection chambered in 35-40 Maynard. That ought to be fun!
    Best Regards,
    John

  5. #65
    Boolit Buddy
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    john,
    this comes from experience, but not all agree.
    I have had made many moulds, both greaser and pp types.
    firing the bullets has revealed many things, including some of the things that cause leading, how noses both set back (bump up), with different lengths and alloys, and how they can bend on firing.
    lacking snowbanks which are ideal catching media, bullets recovered from earth backstops will still tell a lot of the tale.
    rifling marks forward of the front driving band are obvious, as are rifling marks forward of where the front of the patch is.
    the answer of how far forward the patch needs to go is revealed by studying confetti.
    certainly a 30:1 bullet will need a longer patch than 16:1, due to more of the nose bumping up.
    16:1 needs a longer patch than 12:1, but not much longer, and less difference than 30 and 16.
    incidentally 12:1 shoots just as well today as when the creedmoor shooters used it in the 19th century by choice, using bullets patched to bore.
    if we look at noses, a no calibre length would be a pure wadcutter, and have immense drag.
    a 1/2 calibre long nose would have a hemisphere on the end of a wadcutter and have less drag, but still a fair bit.
    as the nose goes longer in calibres, drag decreases.
    however the rate of reduction in drag decreases after 1.5 calibres. this for a 45, 50, 38, or whatever.
    patches and recovered bullets have revealed that when noses get longer than 1.5 calibres as cast, they pretty much end up at 1.5 to 1.6 calibres when you light the fire.
    most greasers with much bore ride will end up with that section having rifling on it, and hence potentially leaving lead behind.
    lubing the bore by blowtubing or oiling will help here.
    a clean dry bore will make the problem more manifest, as when firing a first shot or correctly wiping.
    the paper jacket is your friend.
    in the end combining muzzle velocity and sight settings at different ranges will reveal the true ballistic coefficient of the bullet.
    some of the overly long noses come out no better here than 1.5 calibre noses.
    keep safe,
    bruce.

  6. #66
    Boolit Buddy SgtDog0311's Avatar
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    Thanks Bruce! No one could elaborate too much or in too simple of terms for me!

    This one I'm looking at is about 1.85 x caliber. Appearance is even 'more so' with the .125 of bore riding section. I like everything about it and reportedly performs well at 1000yds.

    The originator just gave me permission to try and put his hand drawing in my TMT software. I say "try" since I've never done an elliptical nose and replicating the exact rendition will be an interesting exercise.

    May experiment with lengths closer to 1.5 it if I can keep the weight equal to or greater than it presently is.
    Best Regards,
    John

  7. #67
    Boolit Buddy
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    john,
    I would be quite concerned about that bore riding section.
    it along with a bit of the ogive will end up in the rifling when you light the fire.
    lightly lubing the bore after wiping might help.
    if it were a pp bullet, there is no question that bore riding section would be patched.
    just because it is a greaser does not mean it will not bump up.
    the big danger is looking at the bullets as cast, and not translating that into what they will be as fired.
    that antimonial alloy you mention will also bump up the bore ride section, even after a couple of weeks for the hardness to settle down.
    I have about 5 or 6 moulds of such design that I cannot use for this reason.
    one shoots moderately well blowtubing, but being a micro mini design carries not enough lube to do so properly.
    keep safe,
    bruce.

  8. #68
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    I stay away from bullets that have a longer ogive then the shank.

  9. #69
    Boolit Buddy SgtDog0311's Avatar
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    I'm paying attention fellahs. Have not made up my mind yet.

    So far gonna try a couple production molds. Have the Snover and getting ready. Also have a kind offer for a some Saeco bullets and a Money. I liked what was said about the elliptical though still not sure if I should be saying Prolate instead. But that's my own slow intellect.

    Questions then first for Bruce and then Kurt.

    Bruce, am I correct in thinking your concern about the bore riding (.125 length) is only do to all that long nose in front of it. I ask because a Creedmoor looks to have an even longer bore riding length, so the much shorter nose in front must be the difference. Is that a good understanding? I do get that it will be increased by setback or slump.

    Kurt, when you say shank, how much of the bullet are you including, only the lube groove and driving band section or would it include the bore diameter length in front of the top driving band if there was any? And if you are looking for a particular length, say 1.325, but wanted an elliptical nose, would you then move the driving bands forward to shorten the nose, and do you look for a ratio... like 50/50, 60/40, etc?
    Best Regards,
    John

  10. #70
    Boolit Master
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    John, say Prolate. It is technically correct. Elliptical is not. besides, most bullets called ellipticals aren't even ellipses in 2D (but that's another matter).

    More important is that you sound sophisticated, which will go well with your new image on the shooting line using such finely dressed cartridges in such a celebratory fashion, each one providing its own confetti-parade. You want to look and sound your best when using the PPB.

    Of course, if you don't miss, you can call them anything you want.

  11. #71
    Boolit Buddy SgtDog0311's Avatar
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    That's pretty good Brent!

    btw... I'd show you my bullet but it has speed bumps.

    You'll have to give me time to catch up to you more sophisticated gentlemen. In the time being I'll have to content myself with your cast off pearls. I have good intensions. I promise.
    Last edited by SgtDog0311; 01-09-2017 at 11:24 PM. Reason: postcript
    Best Regards,
    John

  12. #72
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    John.

    Where the ogive radius meets the shank cylinder. This is for a PP or GG. I have never been able to get the most from a "money" where the shank is shorter then the nose using a 18 ROT .45 or a 16 ROT .40. I had Paul Jones make a MB mould that had a nose a couple thousands longer then the shank and it didn't shoot bad out to 200 yards after getting a load, but it just plain fell on it's face at long range when the winds picked up. But in the new 16 ROT .45-90 it shows promise.

    http://www.buffaloarms.com/Bullet_Mo....aspx?CAT=4157
    Last edited by Lead pot; 01-09-2017 at 11:37 PM.

  13. #73
    Boolit Buddy
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    john,
    consider anything behind the ogive as shank, whether it be bore or groove diameter as cast.
    it will most likely end up at groove diameter when you light the fire.
    if the ogive is too long, some of that will as well.
    alloys like taracorp magnum (read hard cast pistol bullets) might be hard enough to some degree avoid this, but in doing so are so hard they will not seal the bore.
    jacketed bullets are supported and can hold shape. unjacketed not so.
    the paul jones creedmoor bullet has proven easy for many to get to shoot, and is believed by paul to be based on an original creedmoor desigh, but if it is the original must have slumped a fair bit.
    no early long range bullet ever had a nose like that.
    again, consider that bullets bore ride as shank.
    just ask yourself where the patch would go up to if it were a bore diameter pp bullet.
    would you leave the front 0.125" of the shank of a pp bullet exposed to the bore?
    kurt has a wonderful picture of a creedmoor design greaser in 50 cal with rifling marks in the so called bore ride.
    keep safe,
    bruce.

  14. #74
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    Yup - the best laid plans and all - what you put in the back of the rifle isn't always what comes out the front.

    It is not that you can over think this, because it is fun on winter nights to work this stuff out, but come match day, bullet design plays a very small part in sorting winners from losers.

    Man! I sound like an old grump
    Chill Wills

  15. #75
    Boolit Master
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    Mr. Wills. I would have to disagree about the bullet design playing a small part. I think it is pretty major myself. Bullet design is probably the number two reason behind the increasing scores in both BPCR and BPTR over the last 25 yrs. I can't prove that, but I believe it. Gunpowder is the number one reason.

  16. #76
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    I thought that might rattle your rock and get you to come out.

    I too think it can add a few points and that is why I have a high Bc bullet in my current LR ammo, but as we know, if as much time was spent on skills as engineering ammo, Gullo would have more competition.

    See - I told you I sound like a real Grump today! Okay, I will crawl back under MY rock.
    Chill Wills

  17. #77
    Boolit Master
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    Ah, yeah, you got me. Like a trout rising for a 14 Adams.

    Unlike Gullo, I can engineer ammo in my basement after dark, but I can't practice at 800 yds in my backyard like he can. I'll beat him in Australia this year though! (gotta dream).

    BTW, if that's the best Grump impersonation you can do, you really need to work on it like we all need to practice LR

  18. #78
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    Brent don't worry about Daves ability to practice on his back yard long range I'm restricted to 200 yards also and I have seen the finish line twice with his name below mine. and I see your name above mine we all have our good and bad days.

    Here is a example of where the shank meats the ogive. This is Brent's prolate I was fortunate to get a mould for. It is a very good bullet that works! This bullet has a very small step down where the shank ends like a GG with out a reduced front band and it gives the nose a sort of bore riding portion. It is only .0012" down in my mould but adding the thickness of a double wrap of paper and when the charge is set off and the alloy is a proper mix for the load the setback on the ogive does not come in contact with the bore. The same will work with a GG bullet, but it takes some work to get the balance between the caliber and the alloy to keep the nose from leaving a lead smear behind that will build up and by the time the relay ends so will the accuracy lessen. This shows up more at the long range creedmoor matches where you will shoot several sighters and for score.
    These 4 bullets where cast during the same session and shot with the same powder and wad stack. The one on the left was shot with the .45-90 and the other three with a .45-70. Just because a alloy mix will work with one caliber it might end up to much for a heavier or lighter load the way the alloy reacts to the charge. The wad stack will also alter the way the alloy reacts.
    You can counter act the lead smear from a bore rider with to soft alloy by lubing the bullet that might make contact the bore. I use Johnsons one step liquid floor wax. I have not found anything that works better keeping lead off a dry clean bore. It dry's hard and with a thin wax film. I use it when I use a PJ or Brooks bore riding bullet.


  19. #79
    Boolit Buddy SgtDog0311's Avatar
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    Kurt, Bruce, Thanks for the clarification. Thought I had it right but wanted to be certain.

    On BA's site I don't see a prolate (Elliptical) bullet for a GG 40 caliber. I have hopes but have not graduated to PP yet. Btw, not sure I said it yet but 40 caliber is a 16 twist.

    Also, at the start of this thread the 40-63 twist was mentioned by the OP and others. Mine (Pacific) is a 20:1 twist. Shot that at the Q this year but had more of a hunting bullet at 369gr. Wind got me on the Buffalo I expect. Day before it didn't seem that difficult but second day of festivities proved otherwise.
    Best Regards,
    John

  20. #80
    Boolit Buddy
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    Kurt, We both know that Brent has crappy tastes in beer but knows a good boolit profile. Your pictures of the 3 bullets keeps bringing up a question in the back of my mind. Why do some loads shoot better with 1F than 2F? The picture of your 45-90 that has bumped up past the patch is why this keeps going thru my frigid MN mind. What do you suppose would happen to that round if you tried 1F instead of 2F? Do you think it would be more like the 45-70's that look good. I think the powder impulse needs to match the bullet hardness/toughness. I need another CW Bourbon Barrel Stout. Bob

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BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
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GC Gas Check