What nose shape for 300-500yds?

[Chill Wills]

Chris.
A long time ago Dan T made a post on the Shiloh forum about using antimony, along this line, that it is poison for black powder accuracy. I disagreed with him saying that it was a plus for holding the ogive from getting set back and getting distorted and he went into one of his rages that extended into the PM's he sent to me. I still have them. but they will stay under. But I don't know what made him change his mind about the use of antimony.
Maybe he saw it in one of the old Lyman manuals. Lyman had more then #2 alloy they used to list. They had #1, #2, #3, #4, and #5 and 6 also.
But that is in the past. Kurt

It was me.

Dan could not argue with the targets and the scores I shot when I used Sb in my alloy. This, at any number of matches. Long night over beers and many emails between us. This lead me to asking Mike Lewis to use some of my alloy and another shooters Sb alloy to cast and shoot long 35 cal bullets into North Park, Colo snow banks along with 20-1 and 16-1 alloy bullets to compare with. The outcome of these bullet tests became fodder for a lot of Dan's (revised) writing on alloy. Shortly after that I won the NRA Creedmoor championships with 96.5-2.0-1.5 Pb-Sb-Sn.
Dan was a long time supporter by September 2014 BPTR nationals when I shot his original 40 cal mini-groove bullet (the first mold to later be called Money Bullet in 45cal) in the 600y event and broke Dave Gullo's long standing record score. In the 40 cal I was using 97-1.5-1.5. Dan and Doc Lay were shooting on the next target to my right and Dan was beaming like a proud parent. His bullet design - my alloy.
The internet is full of truisms that just aren't necessarily so. In truth, there are a lot of right ways to do something.

[Lead pot]

Well he called me some names I wont repeat here on this forum with the stuff I posted with alloy tests.

It does not take much antimony to hold the ogive and still lets the bullet expand filling the grooves properly. This is even better using a GG where you don't need to worry about filling the grooves and just hold the nose from getting setback.
My favorite alloy is 18# pure lead and one roll of no lead solder that consists of 95% tin 5% antimony. This holds the bullet profile better then a mix of 1/16 T/L and perfectly fills the grooves using a PP bullet patches .001" over bore diameter.
Yes no lead solder is high priced at $22. a pound but if you watch E-Bay you can find it for less then tin.

[Chill Wills]

Well he called me some names I wont repeat here on this forum with the stuff I posted with alloy tests.

Tho it is not my place to apologize on behalf of anyone, I am sorry that that happened. Dan could get pretty wound up and let it fly sometimes. Thankfully, that never happened between us but I sure witnessed Dan and other personalities go at it. Back down and cool off isn't in some peoples DNA. And too, after a given hour in the evening the ETOH would start to kick in.

Funny thing about high octane people is often they have a very soft generous side.

Anyway, I hear you! I give you a great deal of credit and thanks for sharing your tests freely.
I hope to see you sometime this summer!

[BrentD]

Michael, it wasn't just getting a little wound up on the internet sort of stuff that Dan was mailing to folks. And it wasn't just people on forums. He also did it to people who never posted on forums anywhere. Those messages were so far over the top that you had to see them to believe anyone could write such things much less send them others. I don't know what was up with Dan, but this was something far beyond anything I've ever seen. Some sort of switch flipped for some reason, and it happened to a whole bunch of people were in his sights to attack.

And many thanks for the alloy info. It will be helpful.

[Gunlaker]

Dan was never anything but nice to me. I never met him in person, but one of my posts prompted him to call me and we spent an hour or so discussing a bunch of interesting topics. We talked times about various topics until he passed away. To me he was a rare individual and I miss bouncing ideas off of him.

Brent I've seen people say nasty things about you on the Shiloh forum. You've never been anything but extremely friendly and helpful to me. I take everything I read on line with a big dose of salt.

There are a few people in the shooting world that have honestly good information to share, and are pretty free with it. The information that all of you have gave me has been, and still is, extremely helpful. Mind you, you characters have cost me a lot of dough. I would have been blissfully unaware of the joys of BPTR/BPCR and still have been shooting much cheaper lever guns

Chris.

[BrentD]

Chris, you were lucky then. He was a bright guy, but he had something going on that is just better forgotten if possible or ignored for those of us that can't forget.

As for my "fans" on Shiloh, they are a small but pretty vocal clique that resent anyone who questions their belief system on bullets, rifles, or god-forbid how the NRA runs such HORRIBLE national championships. Dan was, unfortunately, one of them. I could and just did write a small book about that ****, but deleted it. Let's move on to something a lot more pleasant and maybe a little more productive.

I'm out of my virgin lead and now much gamble on what do for bullets this year. I have various forms of scrap lead (x-ray room lead, the mystery Lyman #2-like plates, and some totally unknown "pure" lead stuff). What will work best I don't know and really the only way to find out is to shoot it. That sounds simple enough to me, but since I can only shoot long range at matches, it means that, at some level, each match this year becomes a loading experiment, and I really don't like that at all.

[Chill Wills]

This turned into poo
He is not of this Earth anymore
Some class would be good about now

[BrentD]

Michael, I disremember any other time when you have said the same for one of Dan's posts or any of your other friends when they frequently crossed a much more egregious line.

Like I just said, let's move on to something more pleasant and productive.

[Chill Wills]

Would a nose pour mould with the elliptical nose negate any advantage of said nose shape due to small cut-off flat on end of bullet?

Sorry your Q got lost in all this. I have found FWIW that the small flat on any bullet used in our game will not have any effect on outcome to 1000y. that we can see A small flat at midrange, even less. We are talking the net difference between two small amounts. Some of the most accurate loads I have are developed are using nose pour or flat (0.050"0 base pour bullets. That and $2.65 will get you a cup of coffee....

[Gunlaker]

Michael, how large a meplat are you talking about? I have only shot two of those out of my BPCR rifles, the Saeco 740 and 745 which shoot very well. But I've never tried them past silhouette distances.

I think I remember reading of Dave Maurer doing very well with a Saeco bullet at long range.

I shoot a few nose pour bullets out of my .32-40's and .38-55's and certainly at 200-220 yards they can shoot very well if I'm having a good day

Chris.

[Chill Wills]

Michael, I disremember any other time when you have said the same for one of Dan's posts or any of your other friends when they frequently crossed a much more egregious line.

Brent, All the players were alive. Get it?
I'm done. You get the last word.

[Chill Wills]

Michael, how large a meplat are you talking about? I have only shot two of those out of my BPCR rifles, the Saeco 740 and 745 which shoot very well. But I've never tried them past silhouette distances. Chris.

Chris, I do not really know what works best or how big is too big. Nose pours like most molds are made are what I am talking about. Have you ever seen the size of the flat point Brad Rice shoots? It is huge. How many matches has he won with it???

[BrentD]

Brent, All the players were alive. Get it?
I'm done. You get the last word.

Well thanks for that. I'm sure you will be so kind to step on your buds what will certainly disparage me in death as they have in life should I pass before them.

You are the one that doesn't get it, because you were never targeted by him.

[.22-10-45]

Just recieved a reply from Steve Brooks..smallest nose-pour hole would be .125" dia.

[BrentD]

I would never choose a nose pour target bullet mould myself. Just call me crazy.

[Chill Wills]

Just recieved a reply from Steve Brooks..smallest nose-pour hole would be .125" dia.

22-10-45 that should be about right.
I looked at and measured some nose pour molds just now. Pioneer, Walt's NEI, Lyman, Tom Ballard and Hoch all run about .125 - 150" and that is what a regular base pour top plate is too.
If you can imagine a Money Bullet, the hemispheric nose; the proper diameter nose is 55% of bullet diameter. That would scale to about 0.230" on a 45 cal bullet; less for smaller calibers. Now picture that same bullet with the mould/cavity cut down to remove the hemispheric nose to the 0.125" diameter. You have maybe removed 0.030" from the nose and over all length of the bullet and lost 3-5 grains of lead.
They fly the same.

Now you have a nose pour bullet mold and a great flat square bullet base. What is not to like?

[Lead pot]

Order it with two base plugs, one cup and one flat. I think you would like the flat better. I have a nose pour from Steve that has a .125 hole and it shoots just fine.

[Don McDowell]

I like Brooks' cup based bullet, it's not so deep as to make casting smooth rims a task, and it works to wrap the patch into so well, seems to really make a tight fitting patch that isn't prone to premature unwrapping. Thinking on another of the dual diameter bullets, only this time maybe have him put the original postel nose on it.

[kokomokid]

Chill, taking .030 off the nose could just make a bullet stable to longer range in a slower twist bbl.
I have a Lyman factory nose pour that is same as 457132 otherwise and will try to measure metplate next time i have it out.

[Chill Wills]

Yup, I am sure a nip off the nose will have some effect in that regard too. It is hard to change just one thing at a time.
However, experience shows it will take more than that to change the groups location, even at distance.