What nose shape for 300-500yds?

[.22-10-45]

Hello, I have a .40-63 Ballard A-1 Mid-Range. I was wondering how much importance nose shape would be for shooting 300-500yds? Bullets will be 330grs. paper-patched. I am leaning towards the original Postell nose shape but wondering if the elliptical shape would be better? Bore dia. on this one is .404" with a groove of .409". a patched bullet of .4045 is a tight push thru bore. Thanks!

[BRUCE MOULDS]

your patched to diameter sounds good for a wiping load, if the paper is thin and the bullet is fat.
for hunting it might be a little tight.
you won't go wrong with an elliptical.
keep safe,
bruce.

[.22-10-45]

Target only..yes, wiping between shots. Experimenting with "slicks" of .395' up thru .3995" dia. Papers from .0015", .0018", & .002". A patched bullet of .405 goes thru like a very tight patched muzzleloader but patch remains undamaged. Lots of experimenting fun for next season! Thanks.

[Don McDowell]

The original postel nose , or what some call the creedmoor nose today works fine.

[Lead pot]

22-10-45

What is the twist in that Ballard?

[BRUCE MOULDS]

the paul jones creedmoor bullet is usually easy to get to shoot.
however it drag characteristics leave somewhat to be desired.
it looks like a good bullet that has suffered a bad case of nose slump due to soft alloy.
in greaser form, this bullet also has the bad design of being bore riding.
the bore riding section will always bump into the rifling causing potential leading.
elliptical noses will along with money noses produce the least wind deflection for your task in hand.
you will need to work out how far up the nose to place the patch by studying the confetti.
sounds like 0.405 is a good size for that gun.
good luck and have fun.
keep safe,
bruce.

[John Boy]

13 replies to the OP's question on ASSRA forum ... not much more can be said that hasn't been

[.22-10-45]

I don't have notes with me, but I believe it has a 1-20" twist. What custom mould maker woould you guys recommend for a 330gr.ellipitcal nose paper-patch mould? Thanks for all your replys.

[Lead pot]

If that rifle does have a 1/20 ROT the Elliptical with a ogive as long as the shank is not a very good option. It might be ok for the midrange distances but it will give you problems at long range. I fought my 19 twists shooting the elliptical to keep them from digging dirt past 700 yards. Sometimes it's better to use a blunt nose and just screw that idiot knob on top of the sight staff and hold the accuracy.
Maybe Brent will comment. He has a Ballard.....s?

[BrentD]

My Ballard is an 18 twist - Or I thought it was. Now that I think about it some more, I think I thought it was 18 and it might have turned out to be 20. hmm. Guess. I'll have to remeasure it. Is this Ballard of yours an original barrel?

You could use an elliptical but where i like a 4:1:1 ratio of diameters, with a slower twist, a bit less nose might be good so perhaps a 3:1:1 ratio would be better. Basically, shorten up the nose a might.

[flatsguide]

Brent,
Can you please explain the the 4:1:1 ratio of what to what. Thank you.
Richard

[BrentD]

Richard,
The prolate bullets have noses that are the shape of a prolate - a three dimensional ellipsoid with two out of three axes of equal length (e.g., a rugby ball). I do not call it an elliptical bullet as many others do for two reasons, 1. ellipses are two dimensioned and bullets are not, but mostly 2. many of the bullets that are called ellipses are not even elliptical in two dimensions. They have hemispherical tips to their noses - mostly as a machining expedient. Anyway, so the prolate bullets I normally recommend have radii that are in the ratio 4:1:1. (a roundball is 1:1:1 for comparison). If we shorten up the long axis a bit, to 3:1:1, we retain the general stability of the ellipse type of shape in three dimensions, albeit we loose some aerodynamics. Such bullets should be shorter (ie., do not lengthen the base to compensate for the shorter nose) to retain stability.

[Lead pot]

Richard.

Here are some bullets I use in the 1/22 twist .50 Sharps. When I ordered a swage die from Corbin I asked for a 3:1.1 Elliptical and the second and third from the left is his 3:1.1. It's close but I think he missed it slightly. But it shoots very well at all ranges.

Don't pay no mind with those speed bumps on those bullets. I was trying to make some swaged GG bullets.

[flatsguide]

Brent, Led Pot,
Thanks for the explanation. I think I understand now your use of the ratios and the Prolate form. The relationship between the major and minor axis and if one was to spin a two dimensional ellipse around it's major axis one would see the form of a Prolate. Correct? All thinks being equal, is a true Prolate bullet that much better than a similar shape bullet having the hemispherical shaped tip that Brent mentioned ? Maybe at the longer ranges ??? Led Pot, what is the knurling on some of your bullets for, to bring them up in diameter ?
Thanks Richard

[BrentD]

Brent, Led Pot,
Thanks for the explanation. I think I understand now your use of the ratios and the Prolate form. The relationship between the major and minor axis and if one was to spin a two dimensional ellipse around it's major axis one would see the form of a Prolate. Correct?

Exactly

All thinks being equal, is a true Prolate bullet that much better than a similar shape bullet having the hemispherical shaped tip that Brent mentioned ? Maybe at the longer ranges ??? Led Pot, what is the knurling on some of your bullets for, to bring them up in diameter ?
Thanks Richard

Well that all depends on how big the hemispheric tip and who you ask. I don't claim to be objective, but I have a National Medal of Science rocket scientist on my side.

[Lead pot]

Yes Richard. The knurl does a couple things for me. It increases the diameter of the bullet as much as ten thousands if I want with that particular knurl pattern also I can use it as a lubed bullet at a little over groove diameter and it will hold more lube by weight then a 4 grooved GG bullet will and the whole surface including part of the ogive that might come in contact with the bore when the bullet upsets in the bore all lead is covered with lube.

[flatsguide]

Thanks guys, this BPCR stuff can get interesting and I'm just scratching the surface. It's not rocket science...or is it.

[BrentD]

It's not rocket science...or is it.

It most definitely can be.

[flatsguide]

Well this has me thinking. I may want to order a prolate PP mould from Brooks for my Browning 1885 BPCR .45-70 that has a 1/18 twist. This would be for long range, 1000 yds, shooting. Would I be OK with a 4:1:1 nose and a weight of around 525 grains using a 16/1 alloy. I read elsewhere that this would be a tangential ogive so I guess the shank length is the variable. I have no idea what this bullets overall length would be. Do you guys think it would be stable out to the 1000 mark out of my rifle, assuming it would only be seated in the case around .125 inches + or - a bit.
Brent and Led Pot any advise or guidance in this area would be greatly appreciated.
thanks, Richar

[BRUCE MOULDS]

that's right brent, but as you slowly get the feel for it, the mystery starts to minimize.
it is a great journey.
what the odg did is possibly improved upon in some ways nowadays, but doing what they did is not the worst part of gaining an understanding.
that, and learning from successful current shooters.
black powder has more variables than smokeless, and sometimes you have to go with 2 at once - never the best thing.
increasing powder charges and having to compress to do so is such a case.
I was pleased to reread the definition of a prolate nose.
from my understanding, your noses are in fact 2 calibres long.
if they can hold that length on firing that should give good low drag characteristics.
the big gain in b.c. from increasing the long axis of an ellipse is up to 1.5 calibres, after which there is a law of diminishing returns.
my own long range kal elliptical has a nose of 1.5 calibres length will not have the b.c. of the prolate, but is not bad.
the longer the nose, the harder the alloy requirement to maintain that length when the flame is lit.
my own bullet could be described as having 2 b.c. values, one when transonic and one when subsonic.
it would be interesting to know the actual b.c. of mine vs the prolate under these conditions, but thid would be very hard to establish.
the above comment is based on comparative wind deflection out to 1000 yards when compared to a 308 palme load.
the thing which scares me about long noses is how they can adopt the shape of a bottle when they slump.
this would reduce b.c. severely.
kal and brooks both make lovely elliptical bullets to whatever axes you want in the formula, but kal at least needs to put a radius on the nose for tooling reasons.
I think he can get this radius down pretty small, so the bullet in only 0.003 shorter than the true ellipse.
will the man that made your prolate mould do so for the general public?
keep safe,
bruce.