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Thread: Stock Rifle HV "HOW"

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by TXGunNut View Post
    I worked out a sizing setup to give me exactly .0015" interference fit of the sized bullets into the neck, and put no crimp on the mouth. -Gear

    Can you elaborate on your thinking and your technique? I think that is one of the keys to our goal.
    Well, I doubt that would apply to anyone but me, ever, and hopefully not again. You see, copper is soft. Try sizing soft copper-coated case necks without sticking the case or ripping the plating off. Short version is I used brass shim stock and a .358 Winchester form/trim die to size the necks down just enough to hold the bullets. All that PITA is why I traded that rifle off.

    Ok, in general, I have found through a lot of experimenting that "bullet pull", or how hard the case neck grips the bullet, needs to be the same every time or you'll have flyers out of the group from the necks that aren't the same as the rest of them. I don't use any sort of crimp unless the magazine mechanism and/or recoil of the rifle demands it, or in some rare but definite instances when I'm trying to bump the powder ignition speed up a bit (300 Blackout is a good example of when I crimp case mouths firmly). Why don't I use crimp unless absolutely necessary? I don't really know, maybe I'm just lazy or maybe I've done it six ways from Sunday and MOST of the time crimping case mouths on bolt-action rifles doesn't seem to help anything, so I don't bother because I'm lazy. I've also found through a lot of trial and error that somewhere between .0015" and .0020" of "interference fit" between bullet and case neck gives me the best accuracy, most of the time, in most of my rifles from 6.5mm to 35 caliber. Also, this little bit won't crush soft-ish bullets when you seat them. Occasionally I have to size the case mouths down a touch more than that so the bullets stay put, but that depends on the rifle and caliber. How do I do this? I buy and often modify bullet sizing dies that make the bullets the size I want them, generally just a few "tenths" smaller than throat entrance diameter. Different alloys at different tempers spring back differently, so I have like eight 30-caliber bullet sizing dies, each sanded to a slightly different size. Once I have my bullets where I want them, I size the necks using any number of neck bushing dies, honed-out FL sizing dies, collet sizing dies (Lee's collet dies are extremely handy for precision case neck sizing to just the size you want without having to buy $50 or more in neck bushings for a single caliber). Here I like to put the neck about a thousandth or two smaller than finished size, and use an RCBS cast bullet neck expanding die or modified Lyman M die (spud modded to blend the step into a very gentle taper) to bring the case neck up to my desired final ID, plus add just enough bellmouth so a Hornady gas check on my sized bullets will sit about 3/4 of it's height down in the mouth when I place the bullet there by hand for seating.

    Notice I don't use any FL factory dies or drag-o-matic expander buttons. Factory dies size the necks WAY too small and the expander buttons yank the necks every which way but straight. That right there is a major cause of accurate velocity limitations with cast bullets, most people are using regular old jacketed bullet dies and maybe a Lyman M die to blow the necks back up, or maybe a Lee Universal bellmouthing die, and their necks are crooked, off center, and neck tension varies like crazy. Jacketed bullets don't care about this stuff so much, but cast bullets really do.

    That's the way I do it and the tools I tend to use. There are lots and lots of different ways to accomplish the same thing, but hopefully you get the point about not overworking your necks with conventional reloading dies, the need to find a way to get your bullets the size your rifle likes, and using whatever tools work for you that will put your case necks consistently at the diameter needed to hold the bullets with something like 1.5 thousandths "tension".

    Gear

  2. #102
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    A bushing sizer lets you set how much sizing you do to the neck (which will allow you to pick and choose how much tension is on the bullet). Or you can use a standard sizing die, BUT use a custom expander to also set your neck tension. Custom expanders are actually pretty cheap too.

  3. #103
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    Notice I don't use any FL factory dies or drag-o-matic expander buttons. Factory dies size the necks WAY too small and the expander buttons yank the necks every which way but straight. -Gear

    Thanks, seems I need to re-think my sizing procedure. Using RCBS Cowboy dies was a real eye-opener because they don't size the necks much and don't have an expander button. Only problem I may have is that I generally have more than one rifle chambered for a given cartridge but for the purposes of this project I should dedicate a lot of cases. I'm also seriously considering an annealer to help keep my neck tension uniform, have seen what happens when necks get work-hardened.
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  4. #104
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    How does everyone feel about using the NOE expander buttons?

    $6 a piece and lots of size options.
    Ill keep my guns money and freedom you keep the CHANGE!!!

  5. #105
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    As long as they expand the neck, I don't see why they wouldn't work. An expanding mandrel is just a piece of metal of a certain diameter that opens up a hole to a certain diameter.

    I have seen a couple ways to measure neck tension. There are gauges that will measure pull, gauges to measure seating pressure, pin gauges to measure case neck ID. There is also the "feel" method, lol. Consistency rules the day here, as it does in just about anything where you want repeatability of a result.

    Then you have shoulder bumping to keep from over working your brass AND it keeps the brass body formed to the chamber and just sizes the neck and bumps the shoulder back however much you need to get the rd to chamber.

    ETA- Using the dies to the best of their capability, and being consistent should go a long way towards achieving "HV" in stock rifles. "HV" essentially having a wandering meaning, what it means to me is the cast bullet must near match the speed and accuracy of a jacketed match bullet for me to consider it a success. Those are my parameters, I haven't met them, so I keep my 308 boolit pretty slow around 2200 FPS in my 2112 built rifle.

    Before I bow out here, I'd once again like to preach consistency. Consistency in all that you do. You will be rewarded.
    Last edited by Love Life; 01-17-2016 at 12:37 PM.

  6. #106
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    I like my L.E. Wilson neck bushing dies, in-line seaters and arbor press. Have used them for years for my jacketed loads. But, it would be a pretty good cash layout to switch over to them, if a person didn't already have them.

    I use a Redding Neck Bushing sizing die for my .257 WM and it works great, give me good low bullet run-out. The Lee collet dies have worked extremely well also for me.

    I really hate pulling a sized case back over a neck expander button. It really works the brass, and sometimes it can move the shoulder/datum line. But for some cartridges you have no choice.

    I agree with Geargnasher about the .002" neck tension. This is what I set up for with jacketed bullets in my neck bushing dies. Just never tried them yet with cast boolits. I have a Wilson neck bushing die for my .308's, and sounds like a good option to try with my cast boolits.
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  7. #107
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    Gear,

    Would adding a small crimp serve to create a more consistent neck tension? My thinking is that if the neck tension is set very low then minor variations will be harder to control. If a slight crimp is added then minor variations in neck thickness and degree of brass annealing will be washed out by the tension of the crimp. For single shot rifle use or benchrest I think annealing, neck turning, reaming, and lower neck tension would provide for better accuracy.

  8. #108
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    I only occasionally anneal brass, so I don't have much experience to share on how that relates to consistent neck tension or accuracy. I've seen annealed necks shoot WORSE on several occasions, and I've had to deliberately work-harden necks sometimes to get them to have enough spring to do the job.

    A few years ago a very accomplished IHMSA member wrote about a very, very lengthy and involved test with .357 Magnum bullet pull vs crimp, no crimp. What he found is crimp had no effect on velocity or accuracy, but neck tension DID. I don't think crimping rifle rounds will add any consistency to bullet pull, but I haven't tested it directly with a mechanical pull gauge of some sort. Really, one can just go shoot loads both ways and see, but if the crimped rounds shoot better, is it because of more consistent bullet pull, or is it because of more resistance amping up the powder ignition and making the whole burn better and more consistent shot to shot?

    Gear

  9. #109
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    drag-o-matic expander buttons
    Agree but the BO is pretty close to straight wall IMHO. NOE expanders work great but case needs to be pretty close to a standard trim length to work correctly. I'm still using the Lee flare tool and 'feel', I know, extra step. I suppose I need to get a flash hole tool and test.
    In 308W I just remove the bell. I'm finding the BO needs a good hard crimp (FCD), using H110, jacketed or cast. IMHO it's the good consistent burn.
    In my earlier testing 1:7 BO carbine, Iso/Pb vs Iso - the 50/50 mix couldn't take the 1700+ fps very well and needed to be sized larger. I only had 4227 at the time and it didn't do well at lighter loads - lots of vertical stringing, unburned powder. I'll swag it and say the weaker alloy needs more 'swage/friction' with the same load so the base is 'good' and flat. These are slick sided boolits with no L.G. to collapse. Only nose slump, base deformation and stripping to worry about. I'll try to test the 50/50 in 1:10 this summer.
    Last edited by popper; 01-17-2016 at 03:20 PM.
    Whatever!

  10. #110
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    Crimp has been mentioned here and is something i'll be trying again on one load in a couple of weeks or so.

    A couple of years ago i worked up a load in the whelen with a 200 gr. boolit and 3031 powder. According to lyman i was somewhere between 24 and 2500 fps.(didn't chrono at the time).
    My load notes show that load was avg. moa @ 100 yds.

    I tried that load last summer and was surprised to get 2 and 3" groups @ 100 yds. I didn't use a crimp as i don't with any of my other loads.
    Anyway, when i got back from the range i looked back at my notes more carefully. Lol in the upper right hand margin of the page was a small print note that says "use a hard crimp with lee factory crimp die" with that load.

    It seems if your going to keep load notes it pays to read them carefully?
    I'll be trying that load again in a couple of weeks and see what happens with the crimp again.

    This thread has me fired up to get back to the shooting range!!

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by vzerone View Post
    Geargnasher, I'm confused. In one sentence you say that you're about in the same place Bjorn is. I also take it that you wouldn't be satisfied with the groups that he got. In another sentence you are giving advice of a couple things to try. Well apparently they don't work because in the first sentence you said you are basically stuck.

    I would agree with giving up the super hard alloy, but Bjorn since posted the reason he's using it. I feel that the water quenched 50/50 alloy would be a good one to try especially for hunting also. I believe if it was oven heat treated that it would be too hard for hunting. I also believe the MP Sil even out of the softer alloy as not so good a hunting bullet because it's too pointy. Now, on the other hand the hollow point version is impressive to say the least even with the alloy I just condemned for hunting use.

    I don't agree with some things you said to try. One was if you were to oven heat treat to gas check them first. I don't believe in that basically because I do not believe in annealing gas checks and oven heat treating will do that. The other is I believe they won't be as tight grasping on the bullet after oven heat treating. I can't quite go along with a scuff the freebore either. I don't agree with the temperatures you gave for oven heat treat. I believe in a much higher temperature and have done so with good results.

    You didn't mention lubes. I think for this kind of thing, that is HV, that your SL lubes and the "other guy's" soap lube are the best in this country.

    Bjorn before I signed up didn't I read you wore the throat on your XCB rifle from using Linotype at HV? If that is correct why are you still employing Linotype and even harder Monotype?

    Last I don't believe in casting bullet frosty, but I agree you don't have to be adding 2% tin to anything.

    Bjorn unless the different years on those cases have a wide spread of different internal volumes I wouldn't be concerned with it. You want to make sure you ammo is loaded with the bullet straight. You want to make sure your cartridge centers the bullet to the center bore line. Truing the neck wall thickness can enhance that. Weight your bullets helps much, unless you are such a good caster that the weights are very consistent. The slow powders are good here as is buffer. Not Dacron. Dacron acts much different then buffer. I'm not a huge fan of COW either. Clean your barrel frequently, but don't over clean it. Depending on type of lube I'm not sold on the bore has to be seasoned with a lot of shots. A good lube, such as mentioned above, doesn't need that much seasoning.


    I think you will find it takes 700+ degrees F to anneal gilding metal. I have shot 6.5 bullets(266-469) oven heat treated bullets, treated with the gas check installed, through 3/16 steel at 100 yards, made little Hersheys Kisses, the gas check with very base of the bullet still attached was laying on the ground in front of the target. I'm not certain if 450+/- will even draw back the temper of a gilding metal check, but definitely not annealed.
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  12. #112
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    Interesting, Scot. I haven't messed with annealed checks much but that stands to reason since it takes close to 700°F to begin drawing the hardness out of brass. I rarely need to heat treat bullets higher than 400°F. There was some concern among the powder-coating crowd that coating over checks and baking would ruin the checks, but I don't see that being a problem either at PC curing temperatures.

    Gear

  13. #113
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    It won't affect them, my 50/50 is treated at 435* F for one hour then dropped in to tap water. I don't believe it has any affect on the grip with the base of a bullet either. I do use annealed checks in some applications, they are put into a piece of 3/4 black pipe, a cigarette paper added and both ends capped, then thrown in the wood stove to anneal all night. There are times when the spring back in the check destroys case neck tension and accuracy degrades, annealing brings it back, and this can be seen in ES over a chronograph.
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  14. #114
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    spring back in the check destroys case neck tension and accuracy degrades
    Agree, IMHO it happens during boolit seating.
    Whatever!

  15. #115
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    This is why I anneal all my gas checks to prevent spring back.

  16. #116
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    Swheeler can you explain the cigarette paper for me.

    What you fellas are saying is the GC after sizing, springs back slightly, above the desired boolit diameter we are sizing for, say .310" for .30 caliber. So in effect the GC may be .3105", while the boolit is .3100". Then upon seating the boolit into the case neck, the GC has a tighter pressure against the inside of the case neck, while the boolit may be loose, or have less tension due to a slightly smaller diameter.

    Am I getting this right?
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  17. #117
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    Yes, it's even worse on newly annealed necks which won't spring back on the Pb. Ever have to punch the GC out of the neck when pulling boolits? May not make a lot of difference for softer alloys that will bump up. Paper in the pipe uses all the oxygen so it doesn't oxidize the Cu. I just hit them with the MAPP torch till they change color. I'll try the pipe when I smelt the next batch.
    Whatever!

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hickok View Post
    Swheeler can you explain the cigarette paper for me.

    What you fellas are saying is the GC after sizing, springs back slightly, above the desired boolit diameter we are sizing for, say .310" for .30 caliber. So in effect the GC may be .3105", while the boolit is .3100". Then upon seating the boolit into the case neck, the GC has a tighter pressure against the inside of the case neck, while the boolit may be loose, or have less tension due to a slightly smaller diameter.

    Am I getting this right?
    Yes you have it correct. As popper says the paper uses up the o2, thus preventing your gas checks from scaling up. I used to do them on the range in a frying pan but they get black scale on them.
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  19. #119
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    I don't have a easy way to heat the gas checks in a piece of pipe so I just use a propane torch and dump the gas checks into some Lemi Shine then rinse and let dry.

  20. #120
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    Thanks Popper and Swheeler for the explanation. Now I have a grip on it!
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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check