Stock Rifle HV "HOW"

[TXGunNut]

Thanks for starting this thread, JonB. I hope everyone behaves as in the past this subject has gotten a bit heated at times. I know that techniques that work for others may not work for me and also know that what works for me may not work in everyone's rifles. Looking forward to some spirited discussions and some range (and field) testing, not arguments or name-calling.
Last year I was able to push a good-fitting RD boolit (360-230) to 2200ps in my 35 Whelen using a HT 50/50 alloy. I HT'd the boolits after sizing and before installing GC's to keep from annealing the GC's and work-softening the boolits. I know this adds a few steps but it was worth it. I used BAC but I suspect 2500+ may be a better lube to push the envelope on this project. I've detailed my target and field-testing elsewhere so won't bore anyone with it here.
Case prep is a given; it's important for any accuracy pursuit but has little to do with this project any more than any other project, IMHO.
I'll be focusing on alloy, HT methods, throat fit, sizing and lube. I'm thinking powder will also be critical but suspect that a general class of powders and their pressure curve characteristics may be more important than a specific powder.
This is going to be fun. Started a couple of other projects today but will give serious consideration to starting a HV CB 30-06 project as well.

[35 shooter]

As to annealing checks and accuracy, i can only speak for my rifle and my brothers(both 35 whelens).
I heat my homeade .014" amerimax al. checks in an oven for 1 hr. @500*(not true annealing as that takes more heat) and let air dry.
They definitly size on both tighter than not heat treating and groups are more accurate.
They group better than hornady copper checks in both rifles with every boolit we use at 2200fps.

[TXGunNut]

Well I can tell you that you don't need that much velocity to have really good performance inside the deer's body. Honestly I don't load my hunting loads that fast unless I'm going to shoot longer distances. They would be too destructive. You can do a balancing act with bullet alloys and degrees of hardening and it's a pain in the butt.

I'm well aware of what it takes to have good performance inside a deer's body, it has little to do with the subject at hand. It just so happens that I'm more interested in performance inside a large hog's body but that is a bit outside of this thread's focus as well. I want to figure out how to make my 30-06 shoot like a 30-06 with cast boolits instead of a 30-30....not that there's anything wrong with a 30-30, of course.

[Bjornb]

What happened to posting how YOU do it instead of telling others why they are all wrong?

This thread has taken a wrong turn towards just another HV thread gone bad.

Amen.

[vzerone]

What happened to posting how YOU do it instead of telling others why they are all wrong?

This thread has taken a wrong turn towards just another HV thread gone bad.

Think about what I said btroj. By saying I don't agree with annealing gas checks isn't that in a way saying I shoot gas checks as they are? I did say how I heat treat them when I do it. In that other thread I did say how I was sizing the case. I told bjorn what I would do. In a way I told him I wouldn't use the hard alloys hes using. I also told Txgunner that I wouldn't want my velocity real high for hunting.

So let's have a summary. What you want is for me to post a recipe for instance guaranteed succeed for HV and clover leaf groups? Is that it? If anything I think you turned the thread to a sour note, not me.

[vzerone]

Second though since some aren't satisfied with my replies I'm dropping out. I don't want the thread go downhill because of anything I've done or said.

[btroj]

I'm done. If I want this I can go beyond......

[onceabull]

btroj: well spoken & accurate.... Onceabull

[Bjornb]

I think everybody just need to take a deep breath here. Let this thread be one where the ACTUAL RESULTS rule the day. Sure, giving and receiving advice is fine, but there are very few members on this forum who know in detail how ANOTHER member's rifle will shoot under all circumstances.

So keep the tips coming, but don't get bogged down in minutiae. Remember the targets never lie.

[btroj]

I agree Bjorn.
I want to know what others are doing and what they found did or did not work. Sometimes the failures teach us more than the successes. I have had some results in the past the defied what I considered logical but like you said, the targets don't lie. Still not sure why I went down that road but it lead me where it did.
I may not follow exactly what someone else did but it can certainly lead me to make some changes in what I'm trying next.
I need to not only fit what my rifle wants but what fits with how I do things. We all have a loading and casting style. I am not going to change my entire mindset just because someone else does it different.

I won't be actually shooting until it gets warmer here. Cold weather and heavy clothes aren't conducive to good shooting by me. I will also be trying some carnauba red and I have had poor results in cold barrels with it in the past. If I shoot below 50 degrees I introduce a variable that is easily avoid much of the year when using CR.

[mfraser264]

My higher velocity results are by using a .30 XCB brass mold from NOE, casting straight Linotype, sized to .310 with gas check, Special Red lube, AA 2230 in the 23 gain range, Savage Axis Heavy barrel fire lapped, Boyd's stock, mil suplus brass. From drop results at 200 yards 2100-2300 fps. Have turned in several 1 1/4" 5 shot groups. Seating OAL of 2.608. Rifling is 1:10. I did set the seating die so there is no head space.

Search for the .30 XCB Project, greatly appreciate the effort these folks put into that project and also for sharing the information. Working on sizing more of these bullets to load up a few more hundred for the warmer shooting weather.

[whisler]

Please guys, let's keep this discussion going in the direction that the OP intended. I say that for the sake of us newbies to rifles with cast boolits.

I have yet to cast my first rifle boolit, but I have a Winchester 30-06 that I would like to learn to shoot like a 30-06. I'm retired and far from rich so I won't be building any custom rifles.This Winny is as good as it is likely to get for me.

I'll likely cut my teeth on my Spanish Mauser in .308 at lower velocities, but want to learn as much about HV as possible for my later pursuits with the 30-06. So please, help me out!

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I did start this thread as a discussion...and hoped some would post some range reports. Many of us have winter to contend with, and I know I won't/can't benchrest shoot for a month or so ...El Nino willing but plan to this Spring. I think we are still on track. We have some character's here for sure and if we can keep things on a positive suggestion based comments in regards to other's range reports and/or stated techniques, then we'll be fine. Some of us are more familiar with certain aspects than others and many of us(like myself) are at 'square one' of shooting cast at HV. Just a simple thing to keep in mind, we are all friends of the cast boolit, and we should be friends with each other...and should respect each other even when we disagree. OK?
Jon

[popper]

Attachment 158387
300BO AR plain base (31-142C), chronyd 2112 avg. 100 yds. 2 at the right are 150gr Hornady SP, my loads. Past 140gr jacketed fps. Lee die set, mixed brass with no special treatment. Isocore H.T. with some Cu added. Custom barrel only to get 1:10.
Attachment 158388
308W AR 170gr GC (31-165C) isocore upped to 4% Sb, Cu added (annealed), H.T. chronyd ~2700, 24". RCBS dies, no special prep. All PCd. Pretty close to max jacketed fps. There you go. Don't have a '06 so that's all I can do. Working to be a better shot.

[Harter66]

Well since I have played the Devils advocate.........

In nearly all of my rifles I shoot an alloy of 75/25 WW and lead tamper seals which appears to be 1/20 but has or aquires some copper from the copper wire for seal function. Almost all are also water quenched from the mould. My all purpose lube is 18 oz paraffin, 14 oz generic vasoline and 3 tbsp STP, modified Darrs lube.

32 Remington.
M14 Remington 22" bbl .320 x .312 .
323-175 R2 Lee modified to plain base and sized .323.
Winchester 32 Remington brass unsorted ,it's hard to weigh lot with only 20 cases .
IMR 4350 32.0 gr . Speer data for 32 Winchester with 170 gr sp says 35-37 gr for 1822 -1944 fps . This is universally recommended data for 32 Remington.
CCI standard LRP.

With a typical field sitting 3 point rest and/or "limb under the fore arm" rest this load and rifle produced 3" 100 yd groups . Since the last factory ammo was produced in 1964 and I have yet to find a pointed 170 .321 bullet so there is no jacketed proformance to compare . This load produced 2100 to 2130 fps via my 1st F1 Chrony at 4050 ft MSL at temperatures from 75-90F degrees .
So says my notes from the spring and late summer of 2008 .
I consider this a valid entry as it gives hunting accuracy, meets the 1000 @ 100 Nv requirements and exceeds 2100 fps and published data for a sister cartridge.
I don't have group pictures but I believe Onceabull may have witnessed groups from the above loads at 2012 NCBS .

I currently have been working an AR 15 in 6.8 Remington SPCII.
The unfired bbl slugged .277x.270 .
Above alloy and lube .
NOE 279-124 FP . True weight 129 gr pre lube and check.
Sized 278 in Buckshot push through sizer with Hornady checks .
CCI 41 primers
FC brass from FC 115 FMJ factory ammo .

This rifle was received as a kit from Blackthorne products and assembled on a 1st generation Aero precision lower reciever as an AR 15 A2 . Factory loads were fired for break in and sight adjustment and achieved 3" best groups . This is a 16" M4 bbl with 1-11 twist rate . Best jacketed groups were reached with a Hornady 120SST over RL 10X at 2250 fps +25 -33 for 5 shot load development groups . These hovered around 2.25 inches . Data means zip w/o a base line right ?
To meet the Nv requirements I have to obtain 2200 fps with the NOE Bullet .
Speeds up to 2375 were obtained using RL 10X, 2310 with H322 and 2290 with H4198. There was an abrupt failure of accuracy. After some research the bbl was scrubbed and free float for end parts were aquired . The A2 sight/gas block was replaced by an aluminum low profile gas block and the GI fore end and delta ring were replaced . It was discovered that the muzzle device had caused crown fouling . The A2 flash hider was left off on reassembly . Loads were reshot with RL 10X start loads and the NOE Bullet . Again no pics . I'm not done with this either . These loads delivered 2138-2180 and 5 shot groups under 2 inches . According to data provided by a load program these loads will be in the mid 40 kpsi range . I will add that these are the 1st gas checked bullets I've used ....ever . I can't believe how much easier it made load development with "the wrong powders". Before the modifications the H4198 showed the most promise for 2200 fps and groups under 1.5 . The cold weather dropped in an stalled the load work.
I should also add that the rifle as it stands today has an invested dollar value $510 less the scope which is about as inexpensive as a 2" AR comes based on my rediculously tiny amount of experience with the platform.

[geargnasher]

Ahhh, the .30-'06. I'll tell you guys how I got one of the very last Winchester M70 Classics from New Haven to shoot. First I copper plated the outside of some resized case necks until I could load a throat-diameter bullet with only about a thousandth total case neck/chamber neck clearance. I cast some Lee 312-185 bullets (my bore was like .3015" brand-new) out of some 2% antimony/.25% tin assayed range scrap and water-quenched them. They ended up about 18 BHN after a couple of months. My cases had been fire-formed using the Scotch tape technique to center the heads in the chamber and make concentric, true brass. I worked out a sizing setup to give me exactly .0015" interference fit of the sized bullets into the neck, and put no crimp on the mouth. The load was worked up from a jacketed starting load of a neat little powder Winchester makes called WW780 Supreme. I used BPI compacting buffer at about 10% compression after sifting into the cases with a Lee powder dipper and powder funnel. I seated the bullets so the nose got faint shiny marks on the nose from the lands and the first driving band got evenly marked all the way around by the taper of the throat. I'm not sure I ever got the load tuned as well as I could have (needed to experiment with alloys more) but I quit at around 2500 fps when groups got past 6". It was plenty good for hunting at 1.5" and 2200 fps, which is borderline too fast for that soft of a bullet.

The rifle and same bullet cast of air-cooled WW + 2% tin and loaded in un-plated cases, well fireformed, would group the same 1.5" at 100 yards for five, ten, or as many as you wanted to shoot, any day of the year, from 20 to 107 degrees using Felix lube and a below-starting jacketed load of H4350 powder. That was my deer load for quite a few years and it did the job, though I always thought it would have done a lot better if the bullet had a small cup point. Better than a .30-30? Not by much, but a little. I finally traded that rifle off and if I were to do it again, I'd probably start with a bullet around 200 grains that had a tapered nose and a lot of bearing surface.

I also paper-patched for that rifle using custom bullets of my own design and it was deadly accurate at insane speeds....with regular brass. I think NOE stocks a copy of the NRA paper patch bullet design, and if you want to really get the mostest out of an '06 bolt-action for long-range hunting with cast bullets, THAT would be the way to get-er-dun with minimum fuss.

Gear

[35 shooter]

35 whelen...tc encore with 28" pro hunter bbl.
Hornady 35 whelen cases
Partial full length size in rcbs dies
trimmed length .002" over minimum
Noe 360230 (230 gr.) sized .360 and seated to barely engage rifling
ww alloy ht'd @ 460* for 1 hr. and water dropped
Ben's Red lube or 3 coats of BLL (Ben's Liquid Lube) works equally well.
Sage's .010 half hard al. checks

54 gr. imr4350 powder @ 2200 fps.
Shoots 1" and better @ 100 yds. with weighed boolits and up to 1.5" sometimes if unweighed.
Very nice "high speed for me hunting load".

Boolits weren't weighed for this group, but 4 of them darn sure must have been close lol.

Hunting season will be over here in a couple of weeks and i want to try this boolit with a load of 3031 that worked well with the noe 360200 gr. rcbs clone at between 24 and 2500 fps.
I know that's a pretty fast powder for the application, but my notes say it was doing very well with that 200 gr. boolit.
Also want to try aa4350...we'll see!

Nobody blows a perfectly good clover leaf group like i do.

[TXGunNut]

I worked out a sizing setup to give me exactly .0015" interference fit of the sized bullets into the neck, and put no crimp on the mouth. -Gear

Can you elaborate on your thinking and your technique? I think that is one of the keys to our goal.

[TXGunNut]

I'm done. If I want this I can go beyond......

I hope you'll reconsider. This thread will benefit from your input.

[tomme boy]

The main thing to get this done is ATTENTION to DETAILS. Everything has to be done exactly the same every single time you do it. Your alloy has to be the same, your heat needs to be the same every pour, your cadence of pours, amount of lead on top of the mould, sorting defects, sorting into weights, brass prep. And the nut behind the gun.