Stock Rifle HV "HOW"

[dverna]

Popper, I see it this way. My personal accuracy "standard" is based on what the gun will do with good handloads using jacketed bullets. I expect more out of the .308 "sniper" rifle than I do from my old .30/30 M94.

If the rifle will not shoot jacketed bullets well, and I cannot find anything obvious that is causing it, I trade or sell it. The current quality of commercial rifles is so good that a "bad" rifle is rare. Spending the money to "blueprint" a rifle is not worth it to me. I have only had to dispose of one rifle that would not shoot for me - a .22 hornet Handi-Rifle.

[vzerone]

Popper, I see it this way. My personal accuracy "standard" is based on what the gun will do with good handloads using jacketed bullets. I expect more out of the .308 "sniper" rifle than I do from my old .30/30 M94.

If the rifle will not shoot jacketed bullets well, and I cannot find anything obvious that is causing it, I trade or sell it. The current quality of commercial rifles is so good that a "bad" rifle is rare. Spending the money to "blueprint" a rifle is not worth it to me. I have only had to dispose of one rifle that would not shoot for me - a .22 hornet Handi-Rifle.

You have a pretty good post. There are instances where a cast bullet will out shoot a j-word and that is because you can make a cast bullet fit in some instances a j-word doesn't fit. One example would be that you can't find a j-word with a diameter large enough for a particular bore you have that is over sized or very worn.

Honestly what popper is talking about is really splitting hairs and getting down to the super benchrest techniques. It depends on how far "you" want to go with it. Same as brass prep, do you want to turn necks, deburr flash holes, uniform flash holes, weigh or check cases for internal volume, and more?

[Hickok]

I'd like to start a conversation on how to shoot High Velocity castboolits in a stock rifle.
I believe there are some who'd like to talk about this.

Jon good topic, I am very interested. I just pulled up a chair, and am eager to learn something!

[btroj]

Ah, but Hickok you will learn more from participation! Grab a rifle and some bullets for it and see what you can do. Don't pull up a chair here, pull up a chair at the shootng bench!
I see a group activity here. We can all discuss what we are trying and how it is working. We will all learn from each other.

[Hickok]

Btroj, I am in the process of working with a 700 Remington in .308 Winchester and cast boolit loads right now, powder coating and gaschecks, IMR 4895 powder, ACWW vs 50/50 COWW and pure lead. The weather is the big hold-up for me. May be awhile until I can get out to test some loads.

Really hoping this thread doesn't go.....

[ShooterAZ]

My experience was with a stock Remington 700 in 30-06, 1/10 twist. I had very good results with a low tin/low antimony alloy .5/1.5/98 (approx), a bullet with a good fitment to the throat (in my case the Lee C312-155, believe it or not!), and a slow powder. I used the now discontinued 3100 powder with very good results (under an inch at 100yds for 10 shots, benchrested). Lube was CR. I was able to get to the high 2200's fps before the accuracy started dropping off. After 2300 fps groups started really opening up.

[btroj]

Hickok, I am gonna be very interested to hear how the powder coating does. And I don't think this thread is going anywhere. Jon will keep a close eye on it.

Shooter, that is exactly what we are looking for! Was the bullet heat treated? Did you try an even slower powder, like RE 22?

[vzerone]

My experience was with a stock Remington 700 in 30-06, 1/10 twist. I had very good results with a low tin/low antimony alloy .5/1.5/98 (approx), a bullet with a good fitment to the throat (in my case the Lee C312-155, believe it or not!), and a slow powder. I used the now discontinued 3100 powder with very good results (under an inch at 100yds for 10 shots, benchrested). Lube was CR. I was able to get to the high 2200's fps before the accuracy started dropping off. After 2300 fps groups started really opening up.

I'd try a better lube not changing anything else see what happens. Try one of the soap lubes out there, they've been proven to HV. That 3100 powder is probably one of the best cast bullet powders ever and Accurate had to quit it.

[popper]

My personal accuracy "standard" is based on what the gun will do with good handloads using jacketed bullets.

Generally agree but I've only slugged one rifle - 336 30/30. Shoots jacketed very well and some low fps cast but not fast cast. Reason - really loose in the middle of the barrel. Never done a pound cast of anything, don't know if the chamber is straight or not. This marlin is restricted to softer alloy and lower fps. It did very well @ 50 with the RD boolit unchecked, lubed with veggy oil using #2 hardened with sulfur over some leverE. Can't get it to do well with Cu enhanced at all. I've used LLA, veggy oil, Recluse and now PC rifle. PC is very reliable and I've pushed the 308W to 2800 fps using HF powder - PC threads. I do rotate the case 2x when seating rifle boolits with generic nose seater - it does help. I do Cu enhance all boolits now. I suppose I should get a real mic (dang Dad had a couple I didn't think of snagging before he moved) someday to replace my calipers and get a good balance scale - my elec. scale drifts too much to trickle.
Anyway, my previous post was aimed at what to check in 'what you got' to see if it is worth the lead & powder down range while chasing higher fps. Yes, a GOOD & PROPER mould helps a lot. IMHO it is easier to get jacketed fps from the larger cal. vs smaller - a matter of physics and QC.

[vzerone]

Generally agree but I've only slugged one rifle - 336 30/30. Shoots jacketed very well and some low fps cast but not fast cast. Reason - really loose in the middle of the barrel. Never done a pound cast of anything, don't know if the chamber is straight or not. This marlin is restricted to softer alloy and lower fps. It did very well @ 50 with the RD boolit unchecked, lubed with veggy oil using #2 hardened with sulfur over some leverE. Can't get it to do well with Cu enhanced at all. I've used LLA, veggy oil, Recluse and now PC rifle. PC is very reliable and I've pushed the 308W to 2800 fps using HF powder - PC threads. I do rotate the case 2x when seating rifle boolits with generic nose seater - it does help. I do Cu enhance all boolits now. I suppose I should get a real mic (dang Dad had a couple I didn't think of snagging before he moved) someday to replace my calipers and get a good balance scale - my elec. scale drifts too much to trickle.
Anyway, my previous post was aimed at what to check in 'what you got' to see if it is worth the lead & powder down range while chasing higher fps. Yes, a GOOD & PROPER mould helps a lot. IMHO it is easier to get jacketed fps from the larger cal. vs smaller - a matter of physics and QC.

popper I keep telling you to slug the rear of that barrel. It may just be tight at the threads and then loose till it gets to that tight section at the muzzle. That's and idea condition!!! That rifle may be a cast sleeper.

[ShooterAZ]

Shooter, that is exactly what we are looking for! Was the bullet heat treated? Did you try an even slower powder, like RE 22?

The boolit was WD and aged but not treated. I did try IMR4831, and the results were not nearly as good as the 3100. I do have some RE22 now...so I may have to give that a go.

[popper]

The only necks I turn are BO and that is to get all brass to fit. I do have PP uniformer, haven't done anything to flash holes, yet. I anneal every once in a while. Just Lee, Hornady & RCBS standard dies sets. So not really anything advanced. I only 'pushed the envelope' to test PC capability. And in the BO as I want near 30-30/x39 performance without GC. I'm cheap.
No, it's tight under all the stamping and sights. Slug almost slides back and forth in the middle.
I tested WD vs HT on some RD boolits by twisting til break. Difference was obvious under a loop - much more consistent HTd. Fast cooling creates alternating layers of different composition (%s). An effect called supercooling. Outside layer is always higher Sb as it's the first to cool.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Btroj, I am in the process of working with a 700 Remington in .308 Winchester and cast boolit loads right now, powder coating and gaschecks, IMR 4895 powder, ACWW vs 50/50 COWW and pure lead. The weather is the big hold-up for me. May be awhile until I can get out to test some loads.

Really hoping this thread doesn't go.....

Weather ... In WV ... I wish we had your weather it was -11ºF this morning in MN, so it'll be awhile before I'll brush the snow off the rifle benches at the range. Oh, no worries on this thread going anywhere.
================

I also plan to participate with my Pre '64 mod 70 in 30-06. It's been bedded now, I hope that solves the issues I had with it 2 years ago. I have some Mihec 30 Sil cast in 94-3-3 unsized/unlubed because I am not sure if I'll be heat treating them or not. There is a tiny bit of copper in the alloy (.25%) and this alloy tends to harden a few points harder in 6 months...and I'd like to see what that alloy will do without heat treating, but aged to 6 months, and should measure about 16 BHN, since that's what other aged boolits measured.

I suppose it'd be smart to cast some more of those boolits with a lower tin content alloy and then heat treat them, and let them age. By the time I get around to wanting a harder alloy for HV, they'll have aged some.

[geargnasher]

RX-22 is a good powder for heavier cast bullets in medium sized 30-cal cases (.308 Win/'06-ish) at very high velocity and responds really well to a little granulated buffer on top. It likes as short a jump to the rifling as possible in those applications, particularly if no buffer is used.

Regarding rifle quality, a lot of folks would be astonished to find out how well a Marlin lever action, an M1A, or an AR-10 can shoot with cast bullet loads carefully tuned to their liking. Look at some competition scores for cast bullets fired from un-modified military surplus rifles, very impressive groups are being shot from them on a regular basis. Jacketed bullets only set the benchmark for accuracy in rifles that they fit well and with loads carefully tailored, and only premium match bullets need be considered. Otherwise, it's probable that cast bullets will do better, albeit at slightly reduced velocities.

Gear

[vzerone]

RX-22 is a good powder for heavier cast bullets in medium sized 30-cal cases (.308 Win/'06-ish) at very high velocity and responds really well to a little granulated buffer on top. It likes as short a jump to the rifling as possible in those applications, particularly if no buffer is used.

Regarding rifle quality, a lot of folks would be astonished to find out how well a Marlin lever action, an M1A, or an AR-10 can shoot with cast bullet loads carefully tuned to their liking. Look at some competition scores for cast bullets fired from un-modified military surplus rifles, very impressive groups are being shot from them on a regular basis. Jacketed bullets only set the benchmark for accuracy in rifles that they fit well and with loads carefully tailored, and only premium match bullets need be considered. Otherwise, it's probable that cast bullets will do better, albeit at slightly reduced velocities.

Gear

More commonly known as RL22 right? I think 3100 if it was available would be the cat's meow IF they make it in the old formula.
The 308 doesn't respond real well to buffer if you're talking about it building pressure like what is done in the Swede. There are certain shoulder angles that make that work well.

[Hickok]

Jon, we had one day about a week ago it was in the minus digits, about -8 in the morning, but it has been fairly nice for this area. Right now we are getting snow, it is coming down sideways with the wind! As I have gotten older, I have become a "snow sissy." Yep, I have turned into a "winter wimp."

But you folks in MN get a lot more winter than we do!

Been casting a lot lately, getting ready for a trip to the range! Loading/casting for the .308 to develop a good accurate 200 yard deer load that also gives good expansion out to that range. Working with the Lee 309-200-R.

[MT Chambers]

The only way that I would try for higher vel. with cast bullets would be to work with paper patching.

[geargnasher]

More commonly known as RL22 right? I think 3100 if it was available would be the cat's meow IF they make it in the old formula.
The 308 doesn't respond real well to buffer if you're talking about it building pressure like what is done in the Swede. There are certain shoulder angles that make that work well.

Alliant "Reloder" 22. Lyman abbreviates that whole series of powders "RX" and it put me in the habit of doing the same.

Gear

[vzerone]

The only way that I would try for higher vel. with cast bullets would be to work with paper patching.

If you heard something before about cast at HV being near impossible to do dont believe it. You should at least try it. Who knows you may be hooked. There is so much to explore with cast rather then be stuck back at the BP velocities. Just my two cents.

[MT Gianni]

I take a bullet that fits my throat with louverin grooves, 311466 with a modified nose profile to the Saeco 315. A former member did it and is probably done doing any others. Set it as straight as I can in surplus 06 cases sorted by weight. Push it with a slow powder to nearly 2350 fps using a good lube for my climate. ACWW is all I need to do this in, accuracy runs about 1 3/4" to occasional 1" when my 61 yr old eyes cooperate. [5 shots @ 100 yards].
I can put the same bullet in a Savage 10 308 AC or WD with a similar slow powder and get 4"-6" groups. It doesn't fit the throat.