Stock Rifle HV "HOW"

[newton]

One question I have is this, is it true that .22's are easier to push to near jacketed velocity? And if so, why?

[vzerone]

vzerone, I gladly accept anyone telling me anything. Its a free country

But with all due respect, you told me I was wrong, then proceeded to say the exact thing that I was saying. The boolit/bullet, projectile, is the difference. If I do the exact same case prep, loading technique, and powder/primer - then all that's left is the projectile.

If I find one jacketed bullet, at a certain weight, and find a load that it shoots well with - I can generally take another bullet in the same weight range and get "decent" accuracy with a little bit of load development(powder charge and OAL). I do not change the way I prep my cases. As I said before, I do not prep my cases other than the standard stuff. No special or costly tools in my reloading bench.

I still say focus on the boolit. Different ways of doing things to it - aside from adding a jacket of course. That's what they did, and then left the cast boolit to lay. The guys who wanted HV were not of the mindset we are. They didn't have jacketed bullets, so they didn't say "we need to find a way to make the lead boolit shoot HV without a jacket". They said, "hey, lets put a jacket on this thing so we can shoot it faster" - end of story.

Most people would say that what is being discussed here is insane - doing something that can be(and already has been) accomplished easy one way, yet trying to find another way of doing it.

I for one am all for it. But kind of like the original intent of the thread(in my opinion) was for "stock rifle", I think we need to focus on how to accomplish this HV with common tools.

Newton I guess it all came out wrong. What I'm trying to say is that you have to get the cast bullet straighter inline with the centerline of the bore while the cartridge is resting there in the chamber. The jacketed you don't (but you should if you can).

On your question about pushing the .22 caliber cast to jacketed velocity being easier then the larger calibers is because there is less pressure on bullet because it occupies less square inches. Take a .224 diameter bullet. It's square area in inches is .0394. If you have a peak pressure of 50,000 psi then the pressure on the base of that .224 bullet is 1970 pounds. A bullet diameter of .308 it would be 3775 pounds. A .358 bullet it would be 5350 pounds. A .458 bullet would be 8235 pounds.

On this forum as far as which method of HV came first it's the one being talked about right now. So here is a little list (meaning not all the ways) of HV: Using normal alloys in standard rifles with the faster twists, using very hard alloys (like Linotype) in extremely slow twists barrels, using paper patched bullets, and using copper bearing band bullets. Like I said those aren't all the ways.

[runfiverun]

or as Paco Kelly likes to say a smaller cylinder is stronger than a big one.
I think it has something to do with everything being closer to the center.

[Harter66]

Mechanically that doesn't work .

50,000 psi , that is pounds per square inch isn't it ? That means a column 1x1 inches by whatever it takes to get 50,000 lbs on the 1 inch by 1 inch square . In this case it is pushing in 360 degrees of 3 axis until something moves . The fact that it is a cylinder has no bearing on the load . I would agree that the presume reduction is more stable in a smaller CALIBER than a larger . The physical pressure load doesn't care if a 308 case is necked down to 22 or blown straight to 45 with a case full of 3031 the 22 could go 4200 fps but the 45 will be at only a little more than half that. Witness a 200 psi steam line ,a pin hole cuts things off and seals them up while an open 1 inch line is a high pressure washer line .
An engine cylinder/ piston will still build some compression with a spark plug out but it becomes negligible with the head off.
It's why you can put 27 gr of Unique under a 500 gr load in a2 3/4 12 ga and get 14-15,000 psi load but put it in a 45 120 500 and I'd bet you're looking at more like 50 kpsi .

Mathematically you might be able to prove the theory but mechanically it doesn't hold up.

[geargnasher]

or as Paco Kelly likes to say a smaller cylinder is stronger than a big one.
I think it has something to do with everything being closer to the center.

This is the explanation you guys are looking for with the .22s.

Gear

[newton]

Yes, it takes a smaller amount to move the lighter boolit, but we are only talking a little less.

Everything being close to the center does help I believe, but I only think its a part. What is interesting about the center thing is that lead, being heavier, has that central mass. The smaller the bullet, the closer to center. It would be interesting to break down a 30 caliber jacketed bullet and a 22 caliber one to compare the percentage of copper vs lead in each one.

Of course, EVERYTHING is a part of the equation so I guess you cannot discount the pressure or the center thing.

My theory is this. The smaller calibers can be pushed to jacketed velocities easier because there is less surface area. How I see it, gas cutting is our biggest enemy, one of the biggest advantages with copper jackets and why paper patching works so well. We combat this with lube, but lube is a double edge sword. On one hand not enough lube will allow the gases to deform the boolit, and on the other hand too much can cause stability issues from the time the boolit leaves the muzzle to the time it gets to the target.

Whats easier, to make new lube types or make new molds? Of course, lube. What do we humans have the tendency to do? Go the easy route.

Here is what I purpose. One of two things.

1. Take a known lube and stick with it. Then, have molds made with varying depths of lube grooves until you find the spot that the boolit has used all the lube at the moment it leaves the barrel. LMKO yea right! I know, it sounds near impossible finding that spot, and more so to have the funds to have that many molds done.

2. Find a way to loose the lube, and seal off the gasses at the rear of the boolit. Maybe you cannot loose ALL of the lube, but the less you have the less there is to come off during the flight and disrupt it.

When I get around to it my path will be #2. I will have a mold made, or make one myself that has 0 lube grooves. I will lightly powder coat it, but focus on sealing the gases at the rear. The perfect solution would be a "gas seal" that was not attached to the boolit like we do with normal gas checks(yet I would still have one on the boolit), but instead cleanly depart from the boolit base after exit. Kind of like a backwards sabot.

Ok, I'll give away my idea if someone promises to let me have some when they make them. It would be a plastic upside down sabot which would be attached to the base of the boolit in one little spot right at the centerline. I would hope that the spin or initial pressure would break this spot but they would stay together till the end of the muzzle, at which the boolit goes on and the plastic falls off.

Well, that's my theory and idea I will work toward. Who knows how long it will take till I get going on the idea, but I will eventually.

[vzerone]

Yes, it takes a smaller amount to move the lighter boolit, but we are only talking a little less.

Everything being close to the center does help I believe, but I only think its a part. What is interesting about the center thing is that lead, being heavier, has that central mass. The smaller the bullet, the closer to center. It would be interesting to break down a 30 caliber jacketed bullet and a 22 caliber one to compare the percentage of copper vs lead in each one.

Of course, EVERYTHING is a part of the equation so I guess you cannot discount the pressure or the center thing.

My theory is this. The smaller calibers can be pushed to jacketed velocities easier because there is less surface area. How I see it, gas cutting is our biggest enemy, one of the biggest advantages with copper jackets and why paper patching works so well. We combat this with lube, but lube is a double edge sword. On one hand not enough lube will allow the gases to deform the boolit, and on the other hand too much can cause stability issues from the time the boolit leaves the muzzle to the time it gets to the target.

Whats easier, to make new lube types or make new molds? Of course, lube. What do we humans have the tendency to do? Go the easy route.

Here is what I purpose. One of two things.

1. Take a known lube and stick with it. Then, have molds made with varying depths of lube grooves until you find the spot that the boolit has used all the lube at the moment it leaves the barrel. LMKO yea right! I know, it sounds near impossible finding that spot, and more so to have the funds to have that many molds done.

2. Find a way to loose the lube, and seal off the gasses at the rear of the boolit. Maybe you cannot loose ALL of the lube, but the less you have the less there is to come off during the flight and disrupt it.

When I get around to it my path will be #2. I will have a mold made, or make one myself that has 0 lube grooves. I will lightly powder coat it, but focus on sealing the gases at the rear. The perfect solution would be a "gas seal" that was not attached to the boolit like we do with normal gas checks(yet I would still have one on the boolit), but instead cleanly depart from the boolit base after exit. Kind of like a backwards sabot.

Ok, I'll give away my idea if someone promises to let me have some when they make them. It would be a plastic upside down sabot which would be attached to the base of the boolit in one little spot right at the centerline. I would hope that the spin or initial pressure would break this spot but they would stay together till the end of the muzzle, at which the boolit goes on and the plastic falls off.

Well, that's my theory and idea I will work toward. Who knows how long it will take till I get going on the idea, but I will eventually.

We are getting way off track and splitting hairs over physics. The laws of physics are set and you can't change them. The PSI is what it is. Many can't grasp that if you have 50,000 PSI in the chamber that it's not 50,000 PSI on the bullet base because rarely are we shooting a bullet that has a base area of exactly one square inch.

Newton I'll never buy the idea that one of the things lube does is seals. It just isn't strong enough. There are no set rules that you have to use all the lube up just when the bullets exits the muzzle. If you're worried about gas cutting even when there is a gas check on the bullet, then put polythene discs under the bullet if the neck length permits you or if it doesn't use shot shell buffer. That stuff seals.

Geargnasher good to see you back.

Let's get back on track on what to do to get accuracy at HV with what ever rifle you're using and the standard rifling twists or faster. Newton asked about the 22 caliber bullets and I pointed out the pressure. Another thing I didn't mention is the 22 caliber bullet doesn't have as much area around it's circumference as a larger bullet to stand up to the rotational forces from the rifling. I've been thinking about the forces the rifling puts on the bullet or seen another way the forces the bullet puts on the rifling. I want you guys to ponder this: Do you think maybe Micro-Groove rifling may be better? I can't think of many rifles that have used it besides the Marlins and most all the cartridges they have chambered using that type of groove are not what I consider HV. I'm honestly thinking of having a barrel made with Micro-Groove in a 308 or 30-06 chambering and see what happens when you push cast bullets through it at HV.

[newton]

We are getting way off track and splitting hairs over physics. The laws of physics are set and you can't change them. The PSI is what it is. Many can't grasp that if you have 50,000 PSI in the chamber that it's not 50,000 PSI on the bullet base because rarely are we shooting a bullet that has a base area of exactly one square inch.

Newton I'll never buy the idea that one of the things lube does is seals. It just isn't strong enough. There are no set rules that you have to use all the lube up just when the bullets exits the muzzle. If you're worried about gas cutting even when there is a gas check on the bullet, then put polythene discs under the bullet if the neck length permits you or if it doesn't use shot shell buffer. That stuff seals.

Geargnasher good to see you back.

Let's get back on track on what to do to get accuracy at HV with what ever rifle you're using and the standard rifling twists or faster. Newton asked about the 22 caliber bullets and I pointed out the pressure. Another thing I didn't mention is the 22 caliber bullet doesn't have as much area around it's circumference as a larger bullet to stand up to the rotational forces from the rifling. I've been thinking about the forces the rifling puts on the bullet or seen another way the forces the bullet puts on the rifling. I want you guys to ponder this: Do you think maybe Micro-Groove rifling may be better? I can't think of many rifles that have used it besides the Marlins and most all the cartridges they have chambered using that type of groove are not what I consider HV. I'm honestly thinking of having a barrel made with Micro-Groove in a 308 or 30-06 chambering and see what happens when you push cast bullets through it at HV.

If you don't buy that, then I am not sure what to think. Lube, liquid of one thing or another, is the absolute best sealant there is. Ever heard of hydraulics? The main way man has come up with to lift heavy objects, other than mechanical block and tackle, is to use "lube". The way it can resist the pressures(PSI) involved is by sealing/being unable to compress. It does not work alone of course, but it is the key to heavy pressures. But.....you have to have a "cap" on the other end that can resist the same amount of pressure being put on the opposite end.

This is the main thing that your not seeing to my point. The fact that it does not do the job well enough, because of all other things involved - mainly no "cap" on the other end of the boolit to help the lube seal - is the main reason why I believe gas cutting is our biggest enemy. Why do paper patched boolits work so well? Is it because the people who paper patch do excessive, above and beyond, case prep, loading techniques, etc? No, its because it resists gas cutting.

The problem with poly disks is that they will be deformed, and unless you can manage a way for them to come off at the barrel, they will do just as much damage to the boolit flight stability as loose lube and gas cuts in the lead do. Also, you have to have a way to ensure they seal completely. Honestly, this is where I will start with my theory, but it won't be a simple disk. I do not think they will work like that.

The problem with buffers, and reaching HV, is pressures. They would work, but chamber pressures cannot handle it. Buffers and fillers have already been proven to work with reduced loads to achieve accuracy without the use of lube at all. Buffers and fillers work in the ENTIRE case. Come up with something that works on the boolit alone and you'll have a winner.

[newton]

I personally do not think that the boolit casters of old did not try every type of loading technique, load charge, boolit type, case prep, and barrel/rifling type to achieve HV. I think they did try it. But in the end figured out that if you want to shoot the lead that fast then you need to protect it some how. Lead boolits do not have any trouble with griping the rifling themselves, the issue comes when the micro voids allow the gasses to erode away in the weakest point. The weakest point is where these abrupt changes in geometry inside the barrel are.

[vzerone]

If you don't buy that, then I am not sure what to think. Lube, liquid of one thing or another, is the absolute best sealant there is. Ever heard of hydraulics? The main way man has come up with to lift heavy objects, other than mechanical block and tackle, is to use "lube". The way it can resist the pressures(PSI) involved is by sealing/being unable to compress. It does not work alone of course, but it is the key to heavy pressures. But.....you have to have a "cap" on the other end that can resist the same amount of pressure being put on the opposite end.

This is the main thing that your not seeing to my point. The fact that it does not do the job well enough, because of all other things involved - mainly no "cap" on the other end of the boolit to help the lube seal - is the main reason why I believe gas cutting is our biggest enemy. Why do paper patched boolits work so well? Is it because the people who paper patch do excessive, above and beyond, case prep, loading techniques, etc? No, its because it resists gas cutting.

The problem with poly disks is that they will be deformed, and unless you can manage a way for them to come off at the barrel, they will do just as much damage to the boolit flight stability as loose lube and gas cuts in the lead do. Also, you have to have a way to ensure they seal completely. Honestly, this is where I will start with my theory, but it won't be a simple disk. I do not think they will work like that.

The problem with buffers, and reaching HV, is pressures. They would work, but chamber pressures cannot handle it. Buffers and fillers have already been proven to work with reduced loads to achieve accuracy without the use of lube at all. Buffers and fillers work in the ENTIRE case. Come up with something that works on the boolit alone and you'll have a winner.

Zinc base washer. Your hydraulic statement doesn't make sense. If the seals leak they are useless. Now don't you dare say the same with cast bullets LOL. I'm not going to discuss plastic wad or buffer with you because it's easy to see you don't know a lot about them and that's not an insult. There are different kind of shot shell buffers. One of them is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay different then all the others and if used incorrectly can get you into a heap of trouble.

I believe the bullet gripping the rifling is the problem. Another way of saying is something changes to the surface of the bullet. Far as the gripping I mentioned in that previous sentence I mean you don't see signs of it stripping on well intact recovered bullets. Something else is going on and that's exactly what copper bearing bearing and paper patching prevent from happening. But what? This is why I think Micro Groove rifling might be better at HV because it has different grip on the bullet all around it's circumference whereas 4 groove or 6 groove rifling doesn't.

You can bet your bankroll the old timers tried everything. Not a lot is new under the sun in the firearms world.

Oh about your statement of them shooting lead and figuring out they needed to protect it to go faster, don't forget the step inbetween lead and jacketed bullets where they tried harder alloys then just the pure lead they were using.

[Yodogsandman]

Wonder when COWW's started to become prevalent for casting. It would be well after the time that jacketed began to be used. Before that, base hardening materials must have been used, tough to find and acquire for the masses.

[vzerone]

Wonder when COWW's started to become prevalent for casting. It would be well after the time that jacketed began to be used. Before that, base hardening materials must have been used, tough to find and acquire for the masses.

Just a quick search on Google shows COW came along around 1897.

[newton]

Well I won't argue my thinking, just put it out there. Since the thread is about stock rifles, special micro groove barrels don't fit the profile, but would be interesting to see regardless.

The whole point I make is that the boolit seals do leak. Ever wonder why different molds have different amount of grooves? To provide the "cap". Each one acts as a cap on the lube inside. Kind of like a piston. problem with it all is each ring can only handle so much pressure before it gives way. Lube, unable to compress, just moves to wherever there is room. In theory one hopes it helps buffer the lead from the gasses, but it can only up to a point.

Hardening elements we add help with increasing the rings(bands) strength. It is for sure, and well proven way, to drive a boolit faster. But it reaches its limits just like other things and has its downsides also.

Just to test a theory, someone could tape on a used paper towel tube to the end of the barrel. Get three or four. Mark which side is up/down and tape them on the same way each shot. Swap out after each shot. Then compare the lube splatter points. I bet you'll see they don't all match. And that lube coming off at different points effects the spin/trajectory of the boolit. You can only get a glimpse of what happens in the first foot of travel, but you'll get the idea.

To see the effects of gas cutting we have to trap the boolits. I sure wish I could find the absolute best way to do that. If you do that, you can start comparing the gas cutting on the different shots. You could also examine the rifling at that point.

Maybe that's what I'll start working on myself. There has got to be a better way than we have done before.

[runfiverun]

snow is the best way to trap boolits there is.
next to that oiled sawdust or crumb rubber.
I'd prefer the sawdust myself, but got plenty of snow, only problem is getting the stopped boolits back before someone else does.

newton think about the closer to center of mass comment a little longer, it will start to make sense when you think about the progression down the barrel and when it's free on it's way to the target.

Vince:
microgroove or LEE [5R] type rifling is easily found in other than marlin rifles.
the 7.7 jap barrels use the LEE type rifling which they copied from the LEE-Metford rifles.[douglas also make 5-R barrels I have one on my 7X57 ICL]
rounded rifling causes less damage to the bullets/boolits exterior which is great when using jacketed since they stay together better on game.
my icl is an accurate rifle with jacketed but pretty limited in boolit use.
I mostly use them to snipe grouse when up hunting and worked a load to coincide pretty closely with my cross hairs [set for my jacketed load] at 25yds for obvious reasons.

[newton]

I guess when I look at this thread I think of how the average caster can get HV with stock rifle and standard loading tools/technique.

I I hear you 5R5. I do indeed believe the center of mass has a lot, or is pivotal(pun) to the whole idea. Hence when anything imbalances outside that center you get unstable flight. The bigger the boolit, the more area to become unstable. My thoughts are on how to stop/cure that issue. The bigger the boolit, the more lube, the more chance for that lube to cause irratic flight. Same for the gas cutting/displacement of the lead on the sides of the boolit.

Perfect casting, perfect loading, and perfect barrel harmonics are only good for a perfect boolit ride on the bore. I think the whole issue is what the gases do to the boolit. Thereby causing that center mass to not be the true center of rotation. Each firing will effect the boolit in different ways.

If it was a matter of all the rest it could be done very easy and very repeatable, but we don't see that. It may sound dumb or illogical, but we need to think about things that have not been thought of before. I think it would be easy if we knew without a single doubt what exactly is happening, but so far all I know and have heard is just some good theories.

[newton]

How much snow does it take? We have not had much at all this year, but if we get a bunch I'll pile it up and try.

[newton]

Maybe a liquid with a certain viscosity is the key.

[newton]

Anyone ever tried big blocks of styrofoam?

[runfiverun]

let's talk about that gas thing and powder timing, it's one of my favorite subjects.

[geargnasher]

First let me try to save Newton some trouble, then we can get on. You wanna discarding upside-down sabot? Easy. Put a gas check upside-down behind the normal one and load them so that they can't fall down inside the case. Want a stable plastic wad? Ask about the buffer Vince mentioned, or better yet read the 300 yard Swede milk jug thread and talk to Vince about it afterwards via PM.

Lube CAN and I think usually does make a hydro-dynamic seal between bullet and bore. R5R found this thing he calls "lube smear" and "relax point" that occurs when pressure drops off and the bullet relaxes, causing a lube dump in the bore. "Running out of lube" is a myth when the fact is the lube thins too much for the surface speed and both the seal is lost so gas-cutting causes some lead deposits in the muzzle end of the bore, plus the hydro-dynamic lube film is lost and there's some abrasion going on. He and I both played with lubes so much that we know how much of what at what pressure, velocity point in the bore, pressure point in the bore, etc. each ingredient of a lube performs and how to balance the waxes, metal soaps, friction modifiers, and lubricating oils NOT TO MENTION ALLOY AND POWDER to keep a consistent film strength, film thickness, and dynamic viscosity matching the acceleration rate for the whole trip through the bore. What's the conclusion? Lube matters a whole, whole bunch BUT you can't take it's importance out of the context of the system. Why do we fuss with case prep and bullet fit and alloy and ignition or burn curves so much more to get not quite as good results as paper patch? Because the consistency of bore condition, fragility of the bullet's obturation (finished off on the micro-level by LUBE), and relative weakness of the driving band/land interface at HV need so much more help and attention to detail to get to the same level as paper jackets with grease-groove bullets.

So that brings us back to the important stuff with regular grease-groove bullets, a regular old rifle that I can buy new off the rack at a sporting goods store, and common lead alloys. The whole deal is put a well-balanced bullet into the bore straight and send it up the pipe with the exact same "barrel time" each shot without wearing out the land engraves.

The challenges are getting a soft, slippery lead slug to present the exact same working load to the powder each shot for the whole length of the barrel (any tiny variance in anything will affect the slip-stop of the bullet and thus change barrel time and harmonics), and to get that same soft, slippery lead slug hammered through a small, twisty hole without it becoming all wongo about the bore axis and flying off into never-never land at muzzle exit when the rotational velocity starts getting high.

Lemme break it down some more and repeat myself: Start the bullet straight, provide a consistent, safe runway for it, and push it the same way every time and you'll have a rifle that will amaze you.

NOW, on to how to do all that without a jacket. You can start the discussion from the aspect of how a good HV load functions, or from the aspect of how to craft the ammunition that delivers excellent HV accuracy. They of course are the same thing, but one is the why and the other is the how. You guys figure out how you want to go about it and I'll interject my own meandering experiences on the subject from time to time, provided the noise level in the peanut gallery remains as low as it has recently become.

Gear