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Thread: Stock Rifle HV "HOW"

  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmitty View Post
    Crow with a .375? I love it!
    Yes we had a very good laugh when he told us. He was at the range sighting in those cast load when a crown landed on a fence post at the 150 yard line. He was actually aiming that the 100 yard target he put up and the crow appears. He said what the heck and took the shot. We asked him what's next, prairie dogs??

  2. #302
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    we do have an occasional big bore prairie dog shoot out here.
    the 375 becomes a small bore at that point.

  3. #303
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    I've been thinking about boolit slump.

    Is that an instantaneous blip on the radar, loosely following the pressure curve?

    What does that do to hardness ?
    If the boolit were heat treated, does the slump work-soften the alloy,
    so after the slump and pressure subsides, the softened boolit going down the barrel, is about the hardness of that alloy if unheated?
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  4. #304
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    I wouldn't THINK the bullet is exposed to enough heat long enough to essentially anneal it but that is a guess. I would also imagine slump isn't instantaneous judging by the pictures Speer sent me years ago showing jacketed bullet nose deformation as they traveled down the barrel. Of course we're dealing with milliseconds so slowly and instantaneous are pretty close to each other....lol.

  5. #305
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    David...a 250-280 grain bullet at 1800 in a 375 would be no problem at all for recoil. In fact it would be quite a bit of fun. I shoot a 270 grain at 1600 fps in a 38-55 marlin lever gun. It only weighs about 6 pounds and has a steel butt plate and it's a fun gun to shoot.

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonB_in_Glencoe View Post
    I've been thinking about boolit slump.

    Is that an instantaneous blip on the radar, loosely following the pressure curve?

    What does that do to hardness ?
    If the boolit were heat treated, does the slump work-soften the alloy,
    so after the slump and pressure subsides, the softened boolit going down the barrel, is about the hardness of that alloy if unheated?
    I'd WAG that the boolit nose would not heat up until far away from the barrel after firing it and would only effect the outer surface of the nose. Any slump while in the barrel would be from being kicked in the boolits base by quickly expanding powder gasses without being heated much from it. Even a heat treated boolit is probably less than about 30 BHN and quite pliable when hit by that much pressure almost at once.

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yodogsandman View Post
    snip...
    Any slump while in the barrel would be from being kicked in the boolits base by quickly expanding powder gasses without being heated much from it. Even a heat treated boolit is probably less than about 30 BHN and quite pliable when hit by that much pressure almost at once.
    I am speaking in the barrel...actually in the chamber, during the peak of the pressure curve. I'd think if the pressure is great enough to create slump, that the alloy is being work-softened.
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  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonB_in_Glencoe View Post
    I am speaking in the barrel...actually in the chamber, during the peak of the pressure curve. I'd think if the pressure is great enough to create slump, that the alloy is being work-softened.
    Simply put Jon, no.

  9. #309
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    The trick would be to smack the boolit with most of that pressure curve sometime right after it's pushed past the chamber and is still supported by the bore. As long as any slump is even and the boolits body is fully supported by the bore, it shouldn't matter much. Although, any slump would also create extra pressure to the body, with some flow of lead alloy to the lube grooves and hydraulically push out and replace some of the lube.

  10. #310
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    .I'm interested in bullet slump/alloy issues also. Decided to test with 2 different bullets and 7 different powders. The powders will be 4227, h4895, 4046, varget, bl-c2, h414, 4350, reloader 19, superformance. The bullets will be a saeco 301 and a lyman 311465, both will be cast from range scrap and pc'd. Another set of bullets will be cast from range scrap (15#) and mono-type (5#) + 2% tin cast *730 and water quenched and aged at least a week. All bullets will be sized the same using the same sizer and the same gc's installed.


    Not sure but I figured the fast burning powder/pressure would test the alloy and the slow burning powder would test the rpm threshold. I actually have no set/target group size. Just wanted to see if I could walk loads in and then back out and at what point did those loads/alloys fail.

    So far I have managed to to do the testing with the 4227,started both bullets @ 18gr's and took the loads up to 25gr with the 301's and 27gr with the 311465's. At the low end of the load (18gr) it didn't matter with any of the bullets. Groups were the same up until the 23gr/301 & 24gr/311465. Then the range scrap/pc'd bullets gave up the ghost. The hard cast 301's really didn't like the 4227, and the groups stayed around 2 1/2" (outside hole to outside hole) the whole way thru the test up to and including the 25gr load. The hard cast 311456 tightened up at 26gr and started opening up at 27gr.

    [IMG][/IMG]

    I have no idea what the velocities are, need to start bringing the chronograph to the range. The only thing I can come away with with the testing of this powder with these bullets is:
    The soft pc'd bullets slumped under the higher pressure loads and their groups were 1+" bigger than their traditional lubed/hard cast counterparts.
    The 301 never did anything and stayed the same 2" to 21/2" groups thru out the 18gr to 25gr ladder test with 25gr actually being the best.
    The 311465 walked right in and back out again as it should so I believe I'm looking at the rpm threshold of that bullet.

    The next powder will be h4895, that should answer the rpm questions and hopefully some of the alloy/pressure/slumping questions. Planned on doing ladder tests until all bullets blowout/fail and then chronograph those loads.

    I may have to change bullets and go back and re-test the 4227/long nosed bore ridding bullet. The 301 is a bore riding bullet that has a long slender nose. I never tried the 301 (actually either bullet) in this bbl. The bbl is a .301/.308 instead of a .300/.308 and the 301 bullet's design is real close to having only 60% of the bullet engaging the .300 bore.

    Anyway, that's all I know how to do, walk the loads up until they fail to get a baseline of the bbl/bullet/powder. And then change bullet dia/lube/gc/alloy 1 thing at a time to see if the bullet can be pushed past it's original threshold.

  11. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forrest r View Post
    .I'm interested in bullet slump/alloy issues also. Decided to test with 2 different bullets and 7 different powders. The powders will be 4227, h4895, 4046, varget, bl-c2, h414, 4350, reloader 19, superformance. The bullets will be a saeco 301 and a lyman 311465, both will be cast from range scrap and pc'd. Another set of bullets will be cast from range scrap (15#) and mono-type (5#) + 2% tin cast *730 and water quenched and aged at least a week. All bullets will be sized the same using the same sizer and the same gc's installed.


    Not sure but I figured the fast burning powder/pressure would test the alloy and the slow burning powder would test the rpm threshold. I actually have no set/target group size. Just wanted to see if I could walk loads in and then back out and at what point did those loads/alloys fail.

    So far I have managed to to do the testing with the 4227,started both bullets @ 18gr's and took the loads up to 25gr with the 301's and 27gr with the 311465's. At the low end of the load (18gr) it didn't matter with any of the bullets. Groups were the same up until the 23gr/301 & 24gr/311465. Then the range scrap/pc'd bullets gave up the ghost. The hard cast 301's really didn't like the 4227, and the groups stayed around 2 1/2" (outside hole to outside hole) the whole way thru the test up to and including the 25gr load. The hard cast 311456 tightened up at 26gr and started opening up at 27gr.

    [IMG][/IMG]

    I have no idea what the velocities are, need to start bringing the chronograph to the range. The only thing I can come away with with the testing of this powder with these bullets is:
    The soft pc'd bullets slumped under the higher pressure loads and their groups were 1+" bigger than their traditional lubed/hard cast counterparts.
    The 301 never did anything and stayed the same 2" to 21/2" groups thru out the 18gr to 25gr ladder test with 25gr actually being the best.
    The 311465 walked right in and back out again as it should so I believe I'm looking at the rpm threshold of that bullet.

    The next powder will be h4895, that should answer the rpm questions and hopefully some of the alloy/pressure/slumping questions. Planned on doing ladder tests until all bullets blowout/fail and then chronograph those loads.

    I may have to change bullets and go back and re-test the 4227/long nosed bore ridding bullet. The 301 is a bore riding bullet that has a long slender nose. I never tried the 301 (actually either bullet) in this bbl. The bbl is a .301/.308 instead of a .300/.308 and the 301 bullet's design is real close to having only 60% of the bullet engaging the .300 bore.

    Anyway, that's all I know how to do, walk the loads up until they fail to get a baseline of the bbl/bullet/powder. And then change bullet dia/lube/gc/alloy 1 thing at a time to see if the bullet can be pushed past it's original threshold.
    Forrest,

    I first want to say you are doing good and have done good with this test. Okay, I want to clear up the word slump. It's not a good definition of what's happening to the bullet. What is happening to the bullet is the gas pressure is slamming the base of the bull and trying to compress it. If you move metal in one spot it moves metal to another spot. In our case here with bullets it's moving metal towards the nose. Essentially an easy way to say it, it's compressing or swagind the bullet. The more you hit it with pressure the more you "swage" towards the nose. If you could recover a bullet that's not damaged from impact and hold it horizontal you will not see the nose "slumped". One definition of slump is sit, lean, or fall heavily and limply.

    Okay, next up there is no such thing as a rpm threshold. This is especially true if you have a perfect bullet. This term was phrased by a previous member's limitations on shooting cast bullets. The reason your Lyman 311465 made you think this is that Loverins are very bad about being pushed hard. The Lyman Loverins particularly have a very narrow bearing band that can't take pressure and velocity. You didn't reach no "threshold" limit, you reached the limit of the bullet design and strength. You really should select a better bullet then the Lyman Loverin. Some of the custom mold makers make a Loverin that have much thicker bearing bans then the Lyman's.

    I'm watching powder coating very closely and in my opinion I think bullet lube is still better. I'd really like to see your test done with conventional lube.

    Next I'd like to say you don't need to add 2% tin to the alloy you're using the Monotype in. There's plenty of tin, and antimony, in that alloy.

  12. #312
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    Well, thank you for the reply.

    I just picked a couple of bullets out and wanted to give them a try.

    The tests I'm doing is with traditional cast, size,lube /conventional lube bullets. I figured I'd toss some of the same bullets in the test that were powder coated.

    I added tin because I'm using range lead from an outdoor range, been using the same lead from the same range since the 90's. I don't pick up 22lr's or bp round ball's, mostly home cast/commercial cast/25% to 30% jacketed. The end result is an alloy that real close to coww's. I've used/cast/shot both over the decades and I have a hard time telling the difference. That should put the range scrap alloy (#100 batches) in the 9bhn/10bhn range. I was playing with one of those alloy calculators and punched the #'s in for 75% coww and 25% mono-type. Mono-type ='s 26bhn and I added tin on the calculator until the alloy's bhn ='d 26bhn. The end result was 75% range lead/25% mono-type/6.5 oz tin or 2% tin. Basically I'm stretching my mono-type and more tin should = better bullet elasticity. The end result is an alloy with 8.2% tin and 16.3% antomony that is 26bhn. I've tried 3 different hb pencils on the bullets and none of them scratch the bullets, they only write on them. The same pencils do the same thing with bullets cast out of mono-type and water dropped. Not very exact, but at the end of the day, that's all I got so I try to work with all I got.

    Thank you for the take on bullet slump. Never did any major studying on rifle bullets. Hate to say it but never did a lot of casting for the rifles. Found a load that an 03-a3 liked and that's all I cast for, simply bullets to practice off-hand and the rapid fires @ 100yds with reduced targets. But I have looked/studied the 44cal and bullet slump. Not my photo, it was sent to me a couple of years ago by a fellow member on this web-site. We were discussing bullet slump and looking at fired bullets.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    So anyway, hence the statement bullet slump. I had a couple of choices why those pc'd bullets failed. I have shot around #600 of cast/coated bullets now, mostly in handguns and contenders with 10" bbl's. I've shot the pistol bullets with allot more pressure (same/alloy/same coating) and the bullets performed as they should. The rifle bullets failed as the pressures went up. I can only assume it was the soft alloy in a longer bullet doing what your describing when you say bullet slump.

    The bbl is nothing special, it's a 24" bbl that has a custom chamber cut in it for the 175gr smk bullet. It has an extended ball throat (.3105)cut in it (a good thing for longer bodied bullets in a 308 case) and a 1 1/2* throat that I took a 3/4* throating reamer to and recut the 1st half of the throat with. Now the bbl has a duel angle throat that increasing the cast/lead bullets support when it matters most. At the short start pressure of the load. Traditional cast bullet and a bumped bullet (made a bump die for that bbl) that were loaded/chambered/testing the throat when I was working on it.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    The bbl is a 308/301 which is loose and I'm sizing the bullets to .310. The twist is 1 in 11. So I'm using a different type of custom bbl, it has extended freebore, a long throat and a loose bbl. Sorta like people talking about their shot out service rifles that can't shoot jacked bullets worth a darn but eat cast bullets like potato chips.

    I really don't want to get into a rpm anything other than saying I know a threshold is there. A 1 in 11 is supposed to max out at around 2150. That's what makes this testing so interesting, same bullets being used in a cast bullet friendly bbl that has a fast twist. Along with using extremely fast burning rifle powders to extremely slow burning rifle powders. After A baseline is established with a ladder test done with all the different powders. I can see at what point things failed and then try modifying the bullet (alloy/bump/different size), the gc's, seating depths, no crimp/taper crimp, collet crimp, different lubes. To see if I can extend the pressure/velocity limits of that bullet.

    Pc'd bullets:
    I'm using nothing more than 9bhn/10bhn range scrap and then pc'ing those cast bullets. The pc'ing (tumble lube) process that I use is annealing that alloy making it even softer. I swage my own jacketed bullets & used to cast cores (plinking pistol bullets) out of the free range lead. The cores were too hard to swage so I'd put them in an oven @ 400* for 15 minutes to anneal/soften them. I'm doing the same thing when I pc a bullet, put it in a 375/400* oven for 15 minutes. I just wanted to see how the soft pc'd bullets would do with in a rifle and it showed up real quick, not very well. After I run a full test/baseline of all the powders and find the fail point of a bullet/powder combo I was going to re-test the pc'd bullets. But this time they will be hardened by both water quenched and heat treated in an oven.

    So anyway, it's a start. Not looking for hv, just looking for at what point the pressure or velocity wins and there's nothing I can do to change it.

  13. #313
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    Forrest how do you explain those of us that are pushing 50/50 alloy (COWWS/LEAD) in 1-10 twist to 2400 fps? My cousin pushed a 50/50 alloy bullet out of an 7.65 Argentine to 2400 fps and it has a 9.8 twist. I'm telling you it's a pressure, velocity, alloy, bullet balance, bullet started straight in the bore thing...not an rpm thing. How do you explain 220 Swifts shooting accurately at 4100 fps? You need to diss that notion. If a cast bullet is balanced (hard to do or find) and started straight in the bore (very hard to do) and the alloy is sufficient for the pressure/velocity you will only be limited by the alloy pressure/velocity, your ability to load it correctly, and your shooting ability.

    Forrest this is from the fellow that invented that theory: "The RPM threshold is that point where accuracy begins to deteriorate when the RPM is sufficient to act on imbalances in the bullet".

    Notice the crucial word "imbalances". What did I explain to you about bullet balance and starting the bullet into the bore straight?
    Last edited by vzerone; 02-08-2016 at 12:09 PM.

  14. #314
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vzerone View Post
    Forrest how do you explain those of us that are pushing 50/50 alloy (COWWS/LEAD) in 1-10 twist to 2400 fps? My cousin pushed a 50/50 alloy bullet out of an 7.65 Argentine to 2400 fps and it has a 9.8 twist. I'm telling you it's a pressure, velocity, alloy, bullet balance, bullet started straight in the bore thing...not an rpm thing. How do you explain 220 Swifts shooting accurately at 4100 fps? You need to diss that notion. If a cast bullet is balanced (hard to do or find) and started straight in the bore (very hard to do) and the alloy is sufficient for the pressure/velocity you will only be limited by the alloy pressure/velocity, your ability to load it correctly, and your shooting ability.

    Forrest this is from the fellow that invented that theory: "The RPM threshold is that point where accuracy begins to deteriorate when the RPM is sufficient to act on imbalances in the bullet".

    Notice the crucial word "imbalances". What did I explain to you about bullet balance and starting the bullet into the bore straight?
    Actually I'm not trying to explain anything. Why you would even ask me to explain what someone else did/tested/used is beyond me. Perhaps the people that did these things would be better qualified to "EXPLAIN" their actions.

    When the op of this thread posted this in post #3.
    High as feasibly possible.
    Obviously higher than the typical (1600fps to 1900fps) published loads and up to the physical limits. Honestly I'm not smart enough to set the number, which I suspect will vary with caliber and other factors. This is more of a discussion of how to get there, not a actual number or range of numbers.

    I simply chose a starting point, that starting point being 2 of 11 or 12 different 30cal molds that I have laying around and a hard alloy that I want to work on/with for a future project. I now have 1 singular data point, nothing more, nothing less. I guess when I have 2 data points, I'll have something to compare the 1st one to. Do you notice all the me/myself & I's in that paragraph?? I'm simply starting a thread (key word "starting") on how I'm getting there.

    I have no idea where this came from:
    What did I explain to you about bullet balance and starting the bullet into the bore straight? ?????????????

    Actually you explained nothing of the sort. All's I really got out of your post (#311) is you don't like the guy/other member that had idea's about a bullets rpm, you don't like the loverin bullets and you didn't like the use of tin.

    Well, ok, hopefully you don't mind if I simply keep on doing what I'm doing and work my way thru all 7 powders to establish a baseline of the likes/dislikes of the different powders/pressures with the same bullets are before I start changing things. And if you do mind, you can put in a post that you don't like that either.

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    Forrest I had no intention of riling you. You're the one that brought the rpm threshold up not me. I might add that the theory was composed of and tested by ONE person. Hardly conclusive.

    Okay straight into the bore: One way is to be positive your sizing dies are concentric. Another is you can just neck size if you're sure your neck sizer die is concentric. Yet another method to prove the theory is use thicker case necks. Am I correct that one of your calibers is the 308? If so there is thicker case neck brass out there. Notice benchresters use the most minimum neck clearances. The reason for all that is to center the bullet as much as possible to the centerline of the bore. The use of inline benchrest bullet seater dies is another thing to do. One such die is the Forster Benchrest seater. If you don't believe they work load a dummy cartridge with your seater die (unless you're using such dies I just mentioned) then load one with the Forster Benchrest seater and spin the cartridge in a lathe or one of the reloading company tools for checking concentrically of your cartridge. You should see a different. Last, but not least, use a self aligning design bullet. If you aren't familiar with that the the Mihec 30 Silhouette is one.

    Now if I riled your feather I apologize. I'm not arguing with you I'm trying to teach you some things. That's what this threat is all about.

  16. #316
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    Not to start the threshold argument again.....don't even start it......it does have to do with imbalance and more than one person has thoroughly tested for it including Hatcher, Hornady etc. (Hornady says that less the .001 variances in jacket thickness causes an imbalance they can see of the target ) and has been around a very long time. It is a THRESHOLD. No one says it can't be surpassed. When dealing with cast bullets it just takes a lot more care in prep, casting techniques etc. to get a lead bullet as perfect as possible and then get it started right. For many casters that becomes more work than they want to do for their shooting purposes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shooter93 View Post
    Not to start the threshold argument again.....don't even start it......it does have to do with imbalance and more than one person has thoroughly tested for it including Hatcher, Hornady etc. (Hornady says that less the .001 variances in jacket thickness causes an imbalance they can see of the target ) and has been around a very long time. It is a THRESHOLD. No one says it can't be surpassed. When dealing with cast bullets it just takes a lot more care in prep, casting techniques etc. to get a lead bullet as perfect as possible and then get it started right. For many casters that becomes more work than they want to do for their shooting purposes.
    That's exactly correct shooter93. If you don't have an imbalance, the bullet started straight, and exited very well...there is no threshold. The obstacle then becomes alloy strength while in the barrel and outside the barrel I doubt anyone, myself included, is going to melt the bullet from extreme velocity. One of the ballistic engineers said in order to get the rpm of a bullet high enough to actually disintegrate the rifle twist would be mind boggling and I might add very impracticable.

    The velocity limit where accuracy starts to fail is a limit that caster/shooter put there by his choices of alloy and lube for the pressure range, how well he loaded the cartridge, his correct choice of powder, a concentric cartridge, getting the bullet started straight into the bore, and how well he shoots. The rifle has to be up to the task also.

  18. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by vzerone View Post
    The velocity limit where accuracy starts to fail is a limit that caster/shooter put there by his choices of alloy and lube for the pressure range, how well he loaded the cartridge, his correct choice of powder, a concentric cartridge, getting the bullet started straight into the bore, and how well he shoots. The rifle has to be up to the task also.

    Not wanting to misinterpret your intention here, but... Since there is no perfect anything in this cast shooting game, and not everyone is operating at the same skill level, or with the same quality tools...
    Are you suggesting that all things being equal, especially the not-so-perfect ammo the majority of shooters will be using, there is NO difference between a 1-8" twist and a 1-14" twist barreled rifle of similar quality when trying to reach "high velocity" (whatever the definition is today)?
    If there is a difference, if it might be a little "easier"... what would you guess that difference to be?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cainttype View Post
    Not wanting to misinterpret your intention here, but... Since there is no perfect anything in this cast shooting game, and not everyone is operating at the same skill level, or with the same quality tools...
    Are you suggesting that all things being equal, especially the not-so-perfect ammo the majority of shooters will be using, there is NO difference between a 1-8" twist and a 1-14" twist barreled rifle of similar quality when trying to reach "high velocity" (whatever the definition is today)?
    If there is a difference, if it might be a little "easier"... what would you guess that difference to be?
    No I'm not saying they would be exactly the same. What I am saying is those out there saying you can't get accuracy with a fast twist at HV are wrong. 5r5 proved that when his daughter shot a very small group with an AR15 at something like 2800+ fps (I didn't go back and look so don't quote me on that). The group was witnessed too. I will say yes to it's easier to get HV with accuracy with the slower twists. You should be able to match jacketed with cast. It certainly can be matched with paper patched. I will say yes to it's very hard to do the faster twist and more so with the really fast twists.

    I don't want anyone to give up while looking in their gunsafe and see their 308 rifle and wanting to shoot cast in it to HV, but the twist happens to be 1 in 10.

  20. #320
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    Vzerone; Is this group of 5r5's daughter the internationally famous 1.75 " group at 100 yds that "won the Nevada State Cast bullet"championship..Must be quite the match with competitors shooting over chronographs.... Onceabull
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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check