Stock Rifle HV "HOW"

**TXGunNut** · 01-20-2016, 12:07 AM

Originally Posted by sgt.mike

After looking through six pages, only seen coupla folks (2-5) provide methods and results.
And no clear definition of High Velocity (yes it would be calibre or even case volume specific to a degree).
The saving grace so far is the annealing gas checks even though Btroj and Bjornb seem to provide information that sticks out as helpful to me.
Having way more than one 30-06 I have one or two that will not shoot jacketed yet I can get great accuracy from cast approaching almost what I consider HV, which is a good bit higher than what some consider HV.
Good thread even though three fourths is really unrelated in my opinion. Thank you gentlemen for your time.

Good points, Mike. Let's set some goals. Velocity? Accuracy? Other parameters? No sense in setting out on a trip without knowing our destination or what our mode of transportation may be. I suspect my goals are a bit lower than several folks here, I figure I'll learn more if the group's goals are higher than mine so I'll keep my personal goals to myself.

**runfiverun** · 01-20-2016, 02:25 AM

okay so what's considered normal?
1800 seems to be a pretty reasonable speed for most to be able to reach accuracy with.

is 2,000 pushing things?
or the numbers Bjorn put up [which are lower than what I get with Remington cases and a 30" barrel] 2200 ish.
thing get difficult right about there [with an off the shelf rifle] and you have to start searching for answers.
what is going to help this thread immensely is participation I gave the load that works for me and other particulars.
Bjorn shot fair groups using a completely different set of tools and load combination using my powder combination.
a little dialing it in and his groups would surely shrink, they aren't off that much and the consistency is there.
look at the holes.
maybe he needs more powder [shrug, or a slightly faster one] with this combination.
but for a starting load over 2200 fps that is pretty encouraging.
it for sure didn't have a bunch of holes scattered all over the place and a pile of oblong holes showing poor stabilization.

**btroj** · 01-20-2016, 07:24 PM

High velocity is what each person makes of it. Push your personal envelope. See how fast you can get accuracy, your definition, and then see if you can push the envelope farther.

It isn't a competition but rather a chance to see what YOU can do with your rifle. What is your limit? What can you do to push that limit.

**geargnasher** · 01-20-2016, 07:51 PM

I'm a stickler for 1 MOA or better at any range. Reasons are twofold, it's a personal challenge to load that well and also to shoot that a sporting rifle that well, ten shots, and the other is an accurate rifle/load gives confidence in the field where one needs all the confidence they can muster at the "moment of truth". I tend to discount flyers, but if they occur consistently, say one in ten, that's too much for hunting. I disagree that 3.5 moa is good enough for 200 yard hunting, that's a pie plate. Couple that with my questionable ability to hit a pie plate from field positions in the first place, stack the tolerances, and next thing you know it may or may not be good enough past 100 yards. Like others have said, just my own take on it.

Anyone who's pushed the envelope a little with cast bullets using conventional loading techniques will note pretty much the same point at which groups start to dramatically open up. Apologies to Sgt Mike (I do agree with you) but it must be at least mentioned: Enter the elephant in the room.....what some propose to be an RPM threshold of the bullet. 140K rpm seems to be about the point which most people start having problems. HV, to me, means going past that accuracy/velocity "barrier" as I'll call it. We know where it is, it's easy to find in just about any rifle, and it does seem to correspond to RPM. I think we can all agree on what is "normal" velocity for a given rifle with cast bullets and what is "high velocity" based on that alone. Seem like a good enough definition of HV? When you really spin up a bullet fast, balance becomes paramount or good groups go out the window. There's more to it than twist rate, though, because simply slowing down the bullet's rotation at "high velocity" doesn't return the groups to what they were at lower velocity and same low RPM. Bottom line is the faster you push the bullet, the more forces work against launching a balanced bullet. Lowering RPM can mitigate the imbalance somewhat, but is not the full solution to maintaining fine groups at long range at significantly elevated velocity...only launching a bullet that is balanced in the first place can do that, then it doesn't matter how fast we shoot them, or how fast we spin them, they will group together well. HOW we manage to accomplish the launch of a balanced bullet is really what I think this thread is about. In STOCK rifles. I don't see too many stock 14-twist .30 caliber rifles with 30" barrels out there, maybe I shop at the wrong places?

SO you must get the bullet from the case to the bore straight so the lube groove shanks and nose are concentric with the bore and the base is square, and we must get it out of the muzzle without further damaging it. Tough to do past a certain point because of the forces involved with achieving HV. Let's talk about the methods we use to accomplish these tasks.

We already discussed bullet pull and I for one learned something about check annealing. What else?

Gear

**Bjornb** · 01-20-2016, 08:27 PM

My Ruger GSR w/FN barrel (1:12 twist) hit the wall with the softer alloys (aged COWW, water dropped) right on cue at 2350 fps. That's with the LC Match cases, WLR primers and no further match prep. Groups went to 2-2.5 MOA and trended larger. The powder used, H4831SC, is one I consider ideal for this application; I have used it extensively while shooting the XCB rifles and it always gave good accuracy and decent velocity.

Groups from the above shooting will be posted Sunday; should have some time in the evening.

I'll shoot this rifle one more time, this time with a lot more care: Lapua cases, CCI BR2 primers, Lyman#2 bullets sized to the rifle's throat (.311 gives near perfect fit). That should give an indication as to how much the XCB/bench rest type approach really matters. The goal is to achieve 2500 fps, which is a little faster than most shooters normally get in a 1:12 twist.

On a side note here: Btroj's XCB rifle, which I purchased from him a while back, has a 1:12 Krieger barrel. This rifle shoots MOA groups effortlessly with cast bullets at 2500 fps, and both Btroj and myself shot 2 MOA groups at 2700 fps. So a long barrel of top quality, tight match chamber and meticulous loading is certainly capable of pushing past the RPM threshold.

**geargnasher** · 01-20-2016, 09:22 PM

Mike, do you want to discuss techniques for successful HV cast shooting or sit around and argue about silly definitions? Tell ya what, I'm going to leave that up to YOU and all the other people who know so much more about this stuff than I do. I'm outta here.

Gear

**vzerone** · 01-20-2016, 10:08 PM

sgt.mike,

Post a link to that original 1903 Springfield (remember you said 1903 Springfield and that means the military battle rifle) and it better not be to a special target model. From the few searches I did the original first 1903 Springfield had a 24 inch barrel and it had a very stupid rod bayonet. Note we're talking "that was issued".

Now back on track. I say anyone can use any rifle they want for HV...why the arguing? I know it says Stock rifle, but hey I'm not one that's going to say "Oh no no, you can't use that, it's a special built rifle". It is fun though to see what can be done with original milsurps and being many of us have gotten older and eyes worse far as I'm concerned you can scope your old milsurps. Of course the commercial "stock" rifles were made for scoping.

It's interesting how you all have jumped on the "anneal your gas checks" like a chicken on a June Bug. Going to tell you that's not utopia for HV shooting. The standard gas check doesn't spring back the amount of a brick mortar joint and besides the little amount it does the elasticity in the case neck springs back to grab the bullet. Besides neck tension or bullet pull isn't a very long occurrence. Almost all my ES's are single digit and SD's of very low single digits....without annealed checks. If that gives you confidence then by all means use them. I'm not jumping off the bridge.

One of the most important things is a very well cast bullet. If it's not cast well it's going to be a hard ball game to win. Just as Geargnasher said it's not rpm ruining everything. After all rpm rarely affects j-words shot at very HV. We all know that the cast bullet has to get started straight and it's not as tough as the j-word to be able to do that without a lot of help. Well cast just doesn't mean all filled out and with no voids, it's mean that plus very little weight variation between bullets. It's better found using a ladle. You can get very close with a bottom pour furnace. Bullet weight can vary (and size) by different temperatures. I think the theory or threshold should be called well cast bullet/started straight/right pressure range for the alloy/right powder theory. Oh you could add more to that, but rpm only affects an unbalanced bullet or one that started crooked and exits the muzzle crooked. I've read on this forum where runfiveruns daughter shot some impressive witnessed and measured groups with a 7 twist AR15 at HV. So apparently runfiverun, or his daughter got all their marbles lined up in that great feat.

**JonB_in_Glencoe** · 01-20-2016, 10:45 PM