Stock Rifle HV "HOW"

[TXGunNut]

.......You guys figure out how you want to go about it and I'll interject my own meandering experiences on the subject from time to time, provided the noise level in the peanut gallery remains as low as it has recently become.

Gear

I promise to be quiet while the grownups are talking.

[vzerone]

.......You guys figure out how you want to go about it and I'll interject my own meandering experiences on the subject from time to time, provided the noise level in the peanut gallery remains as low as it has recently become.

Gear

I promise to be quiet while the grownups are talking.

Tx, I'm fine with what ever anyone wants to shoot.

[Hannibal]

Tx, I'm fine with what ever anyone wants to shoot.

I'm still trying to deduce the criteria here. 1 MOA? 2 MOA? 50 yds? 100 Yds? 2K FPS? More? Less? Does it vary depending upon the caliber? Semi - auto? Single shot?

In short, if the criteria is not specifically defined, how is anyone to judge when it has been met?

If this thread is limited to 'Factory Rifles', and said rifles can not hold 1 MOA @100 yds with J-words, are they given a free pass with cast?

One can not comply with the specifications if specifications are not clearly defined.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Hannibal,
Relax, don't get all wrapped up in all these questions that I already answered for the long gone Sgt Mike (may he surf the internet in peace). Each participant can set their own goals. As I stated in post #1, This is a conversation, a conversation to hopefully help each participant reach their goals. I am hoping you are not here to rabble rouse. Bjornb is a marksman and has posted some fine shooting, I hope he continues in our conversation.
Jon

[Hannibal]

Rabble rouse? No, Sir.

But if I may be so bold, the criteria you propose is simply to improve on one's individual prior attempt?

That's fine if that's what it is. I'm simply trying to interpret the purpose of the thread.

My interest in this thread is in reference to factory rifle accuracy and how members are evaluating accuracy.

If one does not establish a baseline, I can not comprehend how further testing can be accurately evaluated.

If you believe this amounts to thread drift, then pardon my digressions.

[Hannibal]

In short, if one owns a 3 MOA rifle, I believe he/she will have a hard road ahead trying to improve upon that with cast, unless a fundamental reloading error is discovered along the way.

YMMV.

[runfiverun]

it's a personal challenge.
get your rifle out.
establish your baseline.
and start working on it.
share what you done or don't [shrug] simple doesn't have to be hard.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Hannibal,
I'm not sure if you are aware, but not all factory rifles are created equally. A cast boolit shooter should know his/her rifle...and they should be the one to set a baseline for that gun.

Now, over a year ago, I attempted HV in a stock Win 70 in 243win and posted the results. I started with 3 loads, a control and two HV loads. My control load shot 2" @ 100 yds, the HV loads were 5" and 12". Now I had some GC issues that discouraged me and I discontinued that project. I did learn some things from it, but I need to learn more.
Jon

[Hannibal]

A personal challenge, as I surmised. Very well, then.

My only experience to date has been with a 358 BLR which shot well over 1 MOA with jacketed bullets, and while I was able to match that level with cast, I still do not regard that endeavor as a success. I shall not bore the membership with the details of said failure. Some of my attempts to correct the BLRs issues are in the levergun forum, but again, do not expect any useful information.

I grew disgusted with the endeavor and sold the rifle, as it was clear to me a re-barreling was the next step. A step which I was not interested in.

And so far as 'rabble rousing', it would seem the individual who used the 'peanut gallery' inference is far more likely guilty of that than I.

YMMV.

[vzerone]

Let me point out a fallacy. That is if you have a rifle you're shooting jacketed out of and you only can get an inch group out if that it won't shoot cast any better, in fact that it will shoot even worse. That's not true. A real good example is a milsurp that has unusual bore/groove dimension that you can't find a jacketed bullet that will fit it correctly. In this case you can tailor cast bullets to fit the particular needs. Those are the more common ones, but I've also seen some factory rifles that shot cast better even if the bore/groove dimensions were correct for jacketed. Those are more rare but they are out there. Don't be turned off to trying cast if your particular rifle won't shoot jacketed well.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

In short, if one owns a 3 MOA rifle, I believe he/she will have a hard road ahead trying to improve upon that with cast, unless a fundamental reloading error is discovered along the way.

YMMV.

Perfect example, if I set the accuracy to 1MOA, the guy with a 3MOA rifle will be discouraged to say the least.

[Hannibal]

That has not been my experience to date. Not saying it isn't possible, just that I haven't found that to be the case with any rifle I've tested so far. I shall keep this in mind.

I CAN state unequivocally that I believe a rifle with a bore diameter .0015" greater at the muzzle end than at the chamber end will not shoot ANYTHING with any degree of reliability. Those rifles are out there as well. Ask me how I know.

Let me point out a fallacy. That is if you have a rifle you're shooting jacketed out of and you only can get an inch group out if that it won't shoot cast any better, in fact that it will shoot even worse. That's not true. A real good example is a milsurp that has unusual bore/groove dimension that you can't find a jacketed bullet that will fit it correctly. In this case you can tailor cast bullets to fit the particular needs. Those are the more common ones, but I've also seen some factory rifles that shot cast better even if the bore/groove dimensions were correct for jacketed. Those are more rare but they are out there. Don't be turned off to trying cast if your particular rifle won't shoot jacketed well.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

snip...
And so far as 'rabble rousing', it would seem the individual who used the 'peanut gallery' inference is far more likely guilty of that than I.

YMMV.

Really? You better re-read your entire post #260.
You seemed to join in this thread with an agenda.

[Hannibal]

I believe Bjornb has posted nothing but truthful information. If you disagree, then I guess that leaves us at odds.

Not a situation I prefer, but there it is.

[btroj]

Hannibal, this is not about besting bjorn or disproving anything he did. He shot some very fine groups and documented them extremely well. I have no reason to believe what he says he did is entirely factual. I haven't seen anyone in this thread vast a shadow of a doubt on his shooting.

This entire thread is about each person seeing how fast they can get cast to shoot with a reasonable, to them, degree of accuracy. Find that limit and then see what can be changed in the casting and loading realm to push that limit upwards.

My desires are to do exactly what Jon posted about in the OP. Take a factory rifle and see where my current limit is for velocity with a semblance of accuracy. Then make some changes and see if I can't eek another 100-200 fps with accuracy out of the rifle.

Making this about old grudges and drama will only cause the thread to be closed. Let's be better than that.

[Hannibal]

Agreed. Let us ALL keep that in mind.

Now, back to our story.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Hannibal,
It has nothing to do with Bjornb and you know it.

Why did you bring up Bjornb in post 260 ?
The answer is clear by all your snide comments in 260 ...to belittle this whole thread ...just like your other posts #159 #161 #162

If you want to honestly join in this conversation, that is great. If not, why are you in this thread?
Jon

[geargnasher]

Let me point out a fallacy. That is if you have a rifle you're shooting jacketed out of and you only can get an inch group out if that it won't shoot cast any better, in fact that it will shoot even worse. That's not true. A real good example is a milsurp that has unusual bore/groove dimension that you can't find a jacketed bullet that will fit it correctly. In this case you can tailor cast bullets to fit the particular needs. Those are the more common ones, but I've also seen some factory rifles that shot cast better even if the bore/groove dimensions were correct for jacketed. Those are more rare but they are out there. Don't be turned off to trying cast if your particular rifle won't shoot jacketed well.

Well said. Too many people get the cart before the horse and build a box of expectations around them that they can never subsequently break out of.

I learned a little about how to get accuracy at HV with cast bullets because I'm stubborn and stupid. Nobody told me before I was on the internet that those lead thingies couldn't be shot past 1600 fps, I just assumed they should do better than that and didn't comprehend why the loading manuals didn't have HV cast loads listed in them. So I just started out with jacketed load data and worked backwards a bit until I started figuring out what to do. A couple people that used to be on this forum helped me a lot on the side and one old gentleman who I miss very much enabled me many years ago by casting bullets for me that did nearly the same thing jacketed ones did when loaded correctly.

Like Runfiverun said, get your rifle, go make some ammo and go shoot it. Push it until accuracy goes away and think hard about what might be happening (most of it has already been said on this thread) and see what you can to to improve it. Ask specific questions. Try to learn something in the process.

Gear

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Vince,
Your thoughts are so correct, even Sgt Mike agrees.

Sgt Mike posted this two weeks ago.

After looking through six pages, only seen coupla folks (2-5) provide methods and results.
And no clear definition of High Velocity (yes it would be calibre or even case volume specific to a degree).
The saving grace so far is the annealing gas checks even though Btroj and Bjornb seem to provide information that sticks out as helpful to me.
Having way more than one 30-06 I have one or two that will not shoot jacketed yet I can get great accuracy from cast approaching almost what I consider HV, which is a good bit higher than what some consider HV.
Good thread even though three fourths is really unrelated in my opinion. Thank you gentlemen for your time.

[geargnasher]

....If you want to honestly join in this conversation, that is great. If not, why are you in this thread?
Jon

Because of this: http://www.derailingfordummies.com/

They're taking turns at it.

Gear