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Thread: 30/30 loads with out gas check

  1. #1
    Boolit Mold
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    30/30 loads with out gas check

    Looking for a load I can hunt with without using a gas check. What would you recommend?

  2. #2
    Boolit Master GabbyM's Avatar
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    Plain based bullets in a 30 caliber are IMHO best at not much over 1200 fps. I can't say why. I used to run a 32 mag revolver at 1,400 fps with plain based swc. Life will be simpler on you if you just use a gas check.
    “AMERICA WILL NEVER BE DESTROYED FROM THE OUTSIDE. IF WE FALTER AND LOSE OUR FREEDOMS, IT WILL BE BECAUSE WE DESTROYED OURSELVES.” President Abraham Lincoln

  3. #3
    Boolit Master enfield's Avatar
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    Not trying to sound like a smart *** but, you should get a reloading manual like one of the lyman cast books. Lots of good load data and velocity info etc.

    hey, watch where ya point that thing!

  4. #4
    Boolit Grand Master bedbugbilly's Avatar
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    enfield . . . not to be a smart ***** . . but I have the 2nd and 3rd edition of the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook and what boolits they show are all "gas check" boolits. So that really does't help the question that OP asks . . .

    jpen . . . I am just getting around to play with the same thing . . .only not for hunting but just general shooting/plinking

    you don't mention what you are hunting or what boolit weights you are looking at so I think that should be a starting point first. Right now, I have four different molds ranging from a 70is grain PB, a Lee 309-100 RN, and a couple in the 115-117 grainish weight. I want to develop some "cat sneeze" loads as well as some to take out woodchucks, etc.. I don't have a chrony so it's going to be a "trial and error" adventure to see what works best and not push so fast that I get leading.

    I'm thinking the same as GabbyM . . . to keep them at 1200 or so. But, without a Chrony, it's going to be by guesswork

    The LCBH does show loads for gas check boolits with such powders as Red Dot, 700X, Bulls Eye, Unique, etc. I'm a low tech caster and use range lead - I want something that I can tumble lube but not push so fast as to get leading. I'm looking at the load data in the LCBH and planning on starting out below the minimum to try and keep it at 1200 fps or a tad below to try and prevent leading.

    Example: The 3rd edition of the LCBH shows a 115 grain GC boolit over a starting load of 7.0 grains of Red Dot which gives 1400 fps. The maximum load of 10.0 grains of RD gives 1747 fps. i'm going to start with Red Dot as that is what I use in my 8mm Mauser for reduced loads with PB lead boolits and I have had good luck with accurate results.

    To try and keep it below 1200 fps, I'm thinking I will start out at 5.0 grains of Red Dot with my 115 garnish boolit and see what happens. I am only looking at shooting at 50 yards or so max. Of course with a reduced load, you want to check to make sure that you don't get squibs but out of my 20 inch Winchester 94 Ranger, 5 grains should do just fine. From there, I can play with adjusting the load depending on what my results are on paper. As I work up, I'll keep an eye out for leading.

    Ideally, I would like to end up with decent loads for a 120 grain and a 150 grain PB Flat Nose. BUT, if I find that I have to use a GC . . I'll play with that as well. I use the Lee push through sizers so it shouldn't be a big deal . . I've just never used a GC before.

    I think first that you need to define what you want to use it for, the range you'll be shooting and what grain weight/mold you'll be using. I'm sure that a lot of 30-30 shooters have played with a PB lead boolit so it will be interesting and educational to see what the responses are. I look forward to see what shows up as it's a new adventure for me as well. I want to stick with a FN boolit for my Winchester but I can still play with RN boolits and get used to my rifle - just load one in the chamber and then one in the tube magazine.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by bedbugbilly View Post
    enfield . . . not to be a smart ***** . . but I have the 2nd and 3rd edition of the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook and what boolits they show are all "gas check" boolits. So that really does't help the question that OP asks . . .

    jpen . . . I am just getting around to play with the same thing . . .only not for hunting but just general shooting/plinking

    you don't mention what you are hunting or what boolit weights you are looking at so I think that should be a starting point first. Right now, I have four different molds ranging from a 70is grain PB, a Lee 309-100 RN, and a couple in the 115-117 grainish weight. I want to develop some "cat sneeze" loads as well as some to take out woodchucks, etc.. I don't have a chrony so it's going to be a "trial and error" adventure to see what works best and not push so fast that I get leading.

    I'm thinking the same as GabbyM . . . to keep them at 1200 or so. But, without a Chrony, it's going to be by guesswork

    The LCBH does show loads for gas check boolits with such powders as Red Dot, 700X, Bulls Eye, Unique, etc. I'm a low tech caster and use range lead - I want something that I can tumble lube but not push so fast as to get leading. I'm looking at the load data in the LCBH and planning on starting out below the minimum to try and keep it at 1200 fps or a tad below to try and prevent leading.

    Example: The 3rd edition of the LCBH shows a 115 grain GC boolit over a starting load of 7.0 grains of Red Dot which gives 1400 fps. The maximum load of 10.0 grains of RD gives 1747 fps. i'm going to start with Red Dot as that is what I use in my 8mm Mauser for reduced loads with PB lead boolits and I have had good luck with accurate results.

    To try and keep it below 1200 fps, I'm thinking I will start out at 5.0 grains of Red Dot with my 115 garnish boolit and see what happens. I am only looking at shooting at 50 yards or so max. Of course with a reduced load, you want to check to make sure that you don't get squibs but out of my 20 inch Winchester 94 Ranger, 5 grains should do just fine. From there, I can play with adjusting the load depending on what my results are on paper. As I work up, I'll keep an eye out for leading.

    Ideally, I would like to end up with decent loads for a 120 grain and a 150 grain PB Flat Nose. BUT, if I find that I have to use a GC . . I'll play with that as well. I use the Lee push through sizers so it shouldn't be a big deal . . I've just never used a GC before.

    I think first that you need to define what you want to use it for, the range you'll be shooting and what grain weight/mold you'll be using. I'm sure that a lot of 30-30 shooters have played with a PB lead boolit so it will be interesting and educational to see what the responses are. I look forward to see what shows up as it's a new adventure for me as well. I want to stick with a FN boolit for my Winchester but I can still play with RN boolits and get used to my rifle - just load one in the chamber and then one in the tube magazine.
    Light loads are more dangerous than max loads because max loads are higher than desired pressures while a light load can detonate instead of burn and be much more powerful than a proof load.

    Read this article and pay attention to small game/gallery loads:

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...Rifles-Article

    Make sure the powder you are using is suitable for the light load of your choice.

  6. #6
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    I would be tempted to apply Lee's theory of alloy "toughness" vs pressure to this discussion. As I understand it, failure-i.e. leading and inaccuracy-results when the alloy is too soft to grip the lands without stripping. What alloy are you using and are you willing to investigate modifying it?
    Varying the powder choice and charge are a different way of answering this question.
    Respectfully,
    Bill
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  7. #7
    Boolit Master chutesnreloads's Avatar
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    I also suggest just getting the gas checks.Save yourself some headaches.Enjoy your shooting/hunting

  8. #8
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    Light loads are more dangerous than max loads because max loads are higher than desired pressures while a light load can detonate instead of burn and be much more powerful than a proof load.

    That is an old wife's tale and has been disproven many, many times. Smokeless powders in cartridge cases burn, they do not "detonate".

    Larry Gibson

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpen View Post
    Looking for a load I can hunt with without using a gas check. What would you recommend?
    As mentioned jpen, what are you hunting?

    Larry Gibson

  10. #10
    Boolit Master GabbyM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    As mentioned jpen, what are you hunting?

    Larry Gibson
    Good question Larry. Dugh, I'd just got out of be before I responded. That's my excuse and I'm sticking with it.

    I have a Saeco 140 grain flat nose plain base bullet. Sort of neat to watch them fly to target. 8.0 grains of Unique was a little fast so 7.0gr was more accurate. Had a little trouble with powder not igniting on a couple. fills action with unburned powder and you are done for the day. I've not heard others with that issue so it may be very rare. Primers were Fed LR. Old ones but they went bang. My thought is the primer pushed the bullet out before powder ignition. Maybe large pistol primers would be better. Going to Red Dot or 700X powder would even be better yet. Heavier bullet would help also. I have a box of the 140 PB's made up. Lots of 700x so I should load them up. They didn't require any sight adjustment. You just had to hold high at fifty yards. You'd be able to take much larger game than I'd want to with a 22 rim fire.

    My old Lyman 45th list a 150gr gas check bullet and 700x powder. 6.5gr for 1235fps and 27,000 cup. I'd need to reduce that for the 140 grain or it would be going to fast.
    “AMERICA WILL NEVER BE DESTROYED FROM THE OUTSIDE. IF WE FALTER AND LOSE OUR FREEDOMS, IT WILL BE BECAUSE WE DESTROYED OURSELVES.” President Abraham Lincoln

  11. #11
    Boolit Mold
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    I'm wanting to hunt deer. The mold I have is a Lee 170 grain. But it is for a gas check I'm just wanting to see what I can get by with if needed.

  12. #12
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    Forget it. IMO you need at least more than plain-based velocity can give you to hunt deer with a .30-30. If you want to go check-less, figure out a sizer to make your bullets about .303" in diameter, paper-patch them wet, and shoot them at jacketed velocities.

    Gear

  13. #13
    Boolit Master Thumbcocker's Avatar
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    Red dot with light to full weight boolits sans gas checks has worked for me. 1200 fps or so velocity.
    Paper targets aren't your friends. They won't lie for you and they don't care if your feelings get hurt.

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    That Lee 170 grain seems to be a copy of the Lyman 311041, which is kind of the Gold Standard for cast in the .30-30. If you shop around, 1K of gas checks will run you around $20 (I've had good luck with aluminum ones), you'll probably want a sizer to crimp them on (again, the Lee ones are cheap and good) and you're in business. No problem getting 1800 FPS or better which is a deer killer for sure.

    Only plain based experience in .30s was deliberately for light small game loads. Easy to get great accuracy, but you have to keep velocity down. I use a plain based bullet for the .32-40, can't remember the mold number offhand, with 9 grains of Unique in my .32 Special and it works great, but I wouldn't hunt deer with it.

  15. #15
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    Depends what you're hunting. I killed my first deer with a 22LR from 15 yards away. Put it on his temple and when the trigger broke the deer landed in a pile. (I might add that I don't think that bullet had a GC on it, but I can't be 100% sure because I didn't recover the bullet.)

    What I propose you do is go load up progressively hotter batches of 5 rounds each 1/2grain at a time, and put them in ziplock baggies with the load data written on them. Take them to the range and shoot them one by one, starting with the lightest and ending where accuracy goes out the window. Write down which load was one step back from where everything fell apart.
    Go back to your secret laboratory and scrub the lead out of your barrel by wrapping steel wool around a used bronze brush so it's a good tight fit in the barrel. Spray the steel wool mop with Kroil and shove it through your barrel a few times. It won't take but a few strokes to eradicate all leading and put you back to square one (for those of you that are squeamish about using steel wool in your barrels, use copper chore-boy).
    Now, sit down and pull the bullets from the loads that were higher than where your accuracy fell off, and reclaim the powder.
    Load up a bunch of ammo with the one that was one step back from accuracy failure, then go back to the range and try it again. You will soon find out exactly what you can do with your particular rifle, then write a thread telling everyone what you observed and learned.
    Precision in the wrong place is only a placebo.

  16. #16
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    With a plainbase ww bullet at 1400-1500 you can get 4-5 moa .much better accuracy if driven 1200. it will kill deer to 50 to 75 yards and more than accurate enough.just make sure to check cold barrel poi.often plainbase driven fast in 30 cal throw the first shots different.
    Hmmmmm... the 32-40 killed em dead back then at this general speed?

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    If, again if, you had enough room under that bullet that it isn't seated to the base of the neck, you could cut some polyethylene wads from say Folgers coffee can lids (and many other items made from that) and seat those in the case mouth and have your bullet push them down as you seat the bullet. That will give you a little more then shooting them alone with no protection. I don't use that bullet so I don't know how much leeway you have to do as I suggested. The only other thing is shotshell buffer may help if you have room for that. You want to keep the powder gases off the base of that bullet. Other then that and paper patch you're up the creek without a paddle.

  18. #18
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    jpen

    I have a Ranch Dog mold that casts about 165 gr. His molds were designed for Marlin rifles in particular. The mold I have is a 6-cavity that does NOT have the gas check. If you like, I'll send you some to experiment with. I've sent plain based .44 mag bullets out of a micro-groove Marlin without any problem at 1800 fps. Maybe you can find happiness too. Or, at least know it "ain't gonna happen".

    If the .357 mag in a revolver is adequate, then a similar weight bullet in .30 cal, at a similar velocity, should be adequate. Placement is the key when pushing the envelope. .32-20 has worked for decades, but there is little margin for error. No one wants to lose a wounded deer. They deserve better.

  19. #19
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    I'd just get the gas checks.

  20. #20
    Boolit Grand Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    While I have not been playing with .30-30, I have been doing a bunch of low level loads in other .30 calibers.
    7.62x54r, 7.62x39 and 300bo to be specific.

    The 54r mosin rounds I was using gas check and up to 13 grains, and getting reasonable accuracy.
    But the real gem is 4.6 of Red Dot under a standard or light for caliber bullet.
    7.62x39 standard is 123/124 gr, I have run both ways from there, down to 90, up to 185. They ALL shoot.
    Some shoot better than others. Like .223 with a 55 gr bator bullet, no gas check and 4.6 of Red Dot.
    Or a 158 grain .358 over 4.6 of Red Dot in a .357 handi rifle.

    You may have to do some figuring to find at what point accuracy goes south and leading starts.

    The "ladder" method will work if you don't try to skip steps.

    For small game I would use a light for caliber 80-100 grain bullet. for deer I would use a heavier one, but not crazy heavy. Say 150-175.

    The best part, with low levels of powder, no gas checks, if you cast your own bullets you can load those for easy less than a dime a piece, maybe as low as a nickle or 6 cents.

    That lets you play with things a bit. Heck that lets you shoot every week till deer season for what you would pay for a box of factory loads.

    Your mileage may vary, now seems like a good time to invest in some Red Dot if you don't have any.
    I would recommend Ballistic Products inc, bass pro, Cabella's, etc. Price I paid for 8 lb jug was 1/3 lower at BPI.
    Have to keep looking.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check