History of the 38 Special so-called "FBI Load?"

[Larry Gibson]

As to handloading to replicate the "FBI" load Unique does a very good job, my M10 really likes 5.3gr with a Hornady LSWCHP.........

That is almost a perfect duplication velocity and pressure wise. I've been using that load since '75 myself with the Hornady and Speer swaged LSWCHPs. That load over a soft cast 358477 is also very good. I also use 5.5 gr under a very soft cast (40-1 alloy) 358156 and HP them with the 1/8" Forster HP tool and then further open the HP with a countersink. I was able to buy my issue 5" M15 when the department switched to 4" M15s. Any of those loads are about the most effective 38 SPL loads I've used.

Larry Gibson

[harley45]

I bought some of the Rim Rock bullets and had good luck with them, so when MIhec did the run of the Thompson HP GC I bought the mold sadly I haven't used it yet to make a comparison.

[Petrol & Powder]

A little off-topic but not much.
The NYPD used revolvers for a long time but they never used .357 magnums. They were confined to the 38 Special.
Technically new officers were not "issued" firearms but rather purchased their duty weapon at very discounted prices from the department. The gun became the officer's property. The list of available duty weapons was rather short and towards the end of the revolver days it was a DAO revolver but the one constant remained, was it was always chambered in 38 Special and never .357 mag.

Circa 1992-1994* the revolvers were dropped from the list of guns the recruits could purchase as their duty weapons but the current officers that had revolvers and wanted to keep them were grandfathered in. So that set the stage for the slow removal of the 38 Special from the NYPD by attrition but with well over 30,000 officers that attrition would continue for many years.

The duty load varied over the years but it was a 158gr bullet (158gr Federal Nyclad towards the end) until it was eventually replaced by the Speer Gold Dot 135gr short barrel load in the mid 1990's. The Speer Gold Dot load was provided to officers that still carried a revolver and it was used in both 4" duty guns and snubnose off-duty/back-up guns (often a S&W 640 or 36). The Speer load was a very good round but many officers lamented the loss of the older 158gr loads and horded them for years.
It's interesting to note that many officers developed a strong confidence in both their 38 Special revolvers and the 158 gr load. Even when given the opportunity to switch to a higher capacity pistol or a newer very well designed jacketed hollowpoint; they held onto the older revolvers and old school 158gr loads. Some of that can be attributed to the conservative nature of cops, soldiers, pilots, ship captains and others that tend to stick with what they know works but some of that is the fact that the 158gr +P Lead SWCHP - DOES IN FACT WORK!


*1993 was officially the last year revolvers were provided to new officers but it appears very few, if any, revolvers were selected by officers in 1993. 1992 was probably the last year of any significant number of new recruits selecting revolvers.

[Scharfschuetze]

A little off-topic but not much.

Seems spot on to me and a nice review of NYPD policies.

Speaking of the NYPD, while I was with a federal agency in the early 80s, one of my comrades was an ex NYPD officer. It was always fun to share "war stories" with him and compare policing in the Big Apple to my experiences in a western state. We are still in touch today regarding firearm questions and post career conversations.

[Outpost75]

Thanks to all those retired from "the job" who have added learned comments from personal experience.
This thread should be made a "sticky!"

[FergusonTO35]

I wonder how long the Ruger GPNY and SPNY were issued?

[johniv]

+1 to Outposts recommendation to "stickyize" this.

[Petrol & Powder]

I wonder how long the Ruger GPNY and SPNY were issued?

There has long been controversy surrounding the numbers of GPNY's and SPNY's that made it into actual NYPD service. While there's no doubt that Ruger made a special run of GP-100's and SP101's to meet NYPD requirements known as the GPNY and SPNY respectively; there is more than a little dispute as what happened to those guns.
The GPNY was a special GP-100 model chambered in 38 Special, fitted with a spurless hammer, had a DAO action and a dull stainless finish. They were made with 3" and 4" barrels but the 4" models are believed to be a bit more common. The SPNY was a dull grey, DAO, 38 Special version of the SP101. Ruger sold a fair number of Service-Six's (all chambered in 38 Special) to the NYPD but the GPNY came late to the party. By the time the GPNY was on the scene the days of the revolver in police service were in the last stages of decline. During the same time frame the S&W NY-1 (a DAO model 64 made for the NYPD) continued to be delivered to the NYPD. There was a little overlap between the Service-Six and the GP-100 from 1986 to 1988 when both models were in production and it appears that no GPNY's were made until after 1988. It is very likely that new, unsold Service-Six's remained in NYPD's armory after 1988 until they were all purchased. Many recruits would opt for the S&W NY-1. It appears the GPNY's were in the NYPD inventory from 1990 -1992. To complicate the collector's world even more, some GPNY's that remained in inventory after January 1, 1993 may have been sold to other agencies.

The statistics I've seen place the total number of GPNY's delivered to the NYPD below 3000 guns and it's unclear how many of those were ultimately purchased by recruits. The SPNY was not a duty gun for uniformed officers. The numbers for the SPNY's seem to be even more fuzzy. I've talked to a few collectors that believe the SPNY's were never delivered to the NYPD in large numbers. I don't have enough knowledge to offer an informed opinion of true numbers for either the GPNY or SPNY.

[Outpost75]

I was told by Chris Peters when I attended the Ruger Armorer's School, that the GPNYs were made in test and evaluation quantities only and were mostly bought by other agencies, Port Authority, Transit Police, etc. This may be true of the SPNY also, but that is speculation.

[Petrol & Powder]

Attachment 157189Attachment 157188
Without documentation it's difficult to establish the linage of a GPNY or SPNY but they certainly were some seriously strong revolvers !

A star stamped on the frame under the yoke is a good indicator of acceptance by a NYPD armorer but like any marking, it can be faked. A cautious collector will verify all of the other details before making a final decision. A factory letter is your best insurance. The second photo shows the "star" acceptance mark on a Ruger Service-Six known to have been an authentic NYPD gun.


As for the GPNY and SPNY, I've never seen one with the "star" acceptance mark but I don't know if they were still following that practice in the early 1990's.

As with all collector's type purchases, Caveat Emptor is the rule.

[Bigslug]

Good thread, and very cool to hear from "those who were there"

It sounds like the 158 grain "FBI load" was so widely accepted because it was already doing what the research conducted as a result of the 1986 Miami shooting concluded that a duty round should do:

1. Assuming you put the bullet in the right place. . .
2. . . .it has to penetrate deeply enough to hit something important. . .
3. . . .and ONLY after you manage to accomplish those two things, take any any all expansion you can get.

I frequently giggle about ongoing spillage of ink over the supposed advantages of one big company's efforts to accomplish those things over another's. When the bore diameter and bullet materials are pretty much set, and SAAMI dictates your pressure curve, your glossy magazine ads don't go far to impress that cold, indifferent bitch known as Physics. At the end of the day, Chevron's 87 octane is indistinguishable from Shell's

I was only a gun-rag reading teenager through the 1980's when all this transition was going on, but I remember the school of thought that reasoned in favor of light, fast-expanding, "energy dumping" projectiles that the FBI eventually concluded didn't reliably make it to the Tootsie Roll center of the Tootsiepop. The thought of going "into battle" with a 110 grain .38 HP load is one of those things that just gives me the screaming willies. While I'm sure they take more that a couple sheets of wet T.P. to stop them, the Mythbusters episode of trying to get a lethal impact out of a ping-pong ball comes immediately to mind. . . Curious to hear of firsthand experiences from those who survived that fad.

[Petrol & Powder]

Well said Bigslug.

The bullet must penetrate deep enough, to reach something important, in order to damage something important enough, to stop the fight.
Expansion is just the icing on the cake at that point.

The "FBI Load" [or whatever you want to call it] was just an early method to get as much performance as possible out of the 38 Special. It turned out to be a pretty good method, even after all of these years! It's interesting how sometimes people disregard old methods simply because they are aren't new or cutting edge.
Handguns in general are poor tools to stop a human attacker but they are often the only tools available. There are better self-defense cartridges than the 38 Special but if the 38 Special is the tool on hand, the FBI load is still a very good choice. If you're dealing with a short barreled 38 Special the FBI load might be your best choice. Despite all of the years, all of the ink, all of the marketing hype and all of the fads; that simple 158grain, +P, LSWCHP has a lot going for it.
It doesn't have to be new to work.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Good thread, and very cool to hear from "those who were there"

It sounds like the 158 grain "FBI load" was so widely accepted because it was already doing what the research conducted as a result of the 1986 Miami shooting concluded that a duty round should do:

1. Assuming you put the bullet in the right place. . .
2. . . .it has to penetrate deeply enough to hit something important. . .
3. . . .and ONLY after you manage to accomplish those two things, take any any all expansion you can get.

I frequently giggle about ongoing spillage of ink over the supposed advantages of one big company's efforts to accomplish those things over another's. When the bore diameter and bullet materials are pretty much set, and SAAMI dictates your pressure curve, your glossy magazine ads don't go far to impress that cold, indifferent bitch known as Physics. At the end of the day, Chevron's 87 octane is indistinguishable from Shell's

I was only a gun-rag reading teenager through the 1980's when all this transition was going on, but I remember the school of thought that reasoned in favor of light, fast-expanding, "energy dumping" projectiles that the FBI eventually concluded didn't reliably make it to the Tootsie Roll center of the Tootsiepop. The thought of going "into battle" with a 110 grain .38 HP load is one of those things that just gives me the screaming willies. While I'm sure they take more that a couple sheets of wet T.P. to stop them, the Mythbusters episode of trying to get a lethal impact out of a ping-pong ball comes immediately to mind. . . Curious to hear of firsthand experiences from those who survived that fad.

And as vindication for good shooting and unbelievable mental toughness, SA Ed Mireles (critically wounded) ended the Miami Shootout in April 1986 with FBI loads fired from his S&W 686 4" by shooting both offenders to death as they tried to escape the scene. Was privileged to meet him and hear his story and pick his brain at a course put on by Metro-Dade PD (now Miami-Dade) in 1994.

[336A]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yd3v_fssabI
Interesting info on calibers, .44 included.
This may have been posted here before, but worth a listen.

Thanks for posting this, I got a chance to listen to it last night. Very informative.

[9.3X62AL]

. . . Curious to hear of firsthand experiences from those who survived that fad.

Well said, sir.

2230 hours/08-03-81, Desert Hot Springs, CA. I engaged an armed drug store burglar behinf the Drug King market/pharmacy in its back alley. 39 year old drug addict armed with sawed-off H&R "Topper" 20 gauge shotgun (later found to have fired #4-#6 shot in high-brass "duck load") took position barricade-fashion behind a garbage dumpster as I took position crouched behind open driver's door of patrol car and its spotlight. Burglar fired first, bulk of shot charge was deflected by spotlight (thankfully) but several pellets hit me in face and head. I immediately returned fire (S&W Model 64 x 4" HB, 38 Special +P 110 JHP W-W), striking the shooter's left wrist and through the plane of his left palm, severing his index finger. 2 hits out of five rounds fired, distance 26 feet. The shooter was disabled from further operation of the shotgun, but not "stopped" per se. He took cover behind same dumpster, and was obliged out from behind it at shotgun-point by 2nd deputy on scene. Shooter went "Condition Black" after being shot, screaming and yelling, but offering no further resistance through the point of custody. I walked to the ambulance, I would be G-- d---ed if I would get on a gurney in front of that druggie SOB. The immortality of 26 year olds, full-on. It turned out that one of those shot pellets fully penetrated my brow--traversed the sinus cavity--penetrated the sinus back wall and was lying on the inboard surface of the brain case, allowing CSF to leak for a couple days. Close one, that. 8 days at Desert Hospital, 8 weeks off, then back to work full duty.

[Bonz]

I bought some of the Rim Rock bullets and had good luck with them.

I do the same and load .357 magnum cases to a touch over .38special +P loads and carry in my Ruger LCR 357 magnum.

[Scharfschuetze]

Curious to hear of firsthand experiences from those who survived that fad.

I engaged an armed drug store burglar behinf the Drug King market/pharmacy in its back alley

Glad you're still with us 9.3X62AL! I had a very similar incident, although the details are a bit different: Armed liquor store robber (already shot one citizen) with a stolen Browning Hi-Power, dark night and in an alley. I tracked him a few blocks through an industrial area on foot during a light snow so I didn't have a car for cover or light. He had a heavy jacket on and 110 grain bullets may have been challenged by that, but four center mass hits with 158 grainers ended his little spree.

I did learn a few things from this and that is when you're in a gun fight with a handgun, you'll always want a more powerful gun than the one you have and that even center mass hits don't always instantly stop a hopped up and determined opponent. My PD's policy allowed .41 Magnums and I bought a Model 58 S&W shortly afterwards.

[ReloaderFred]

Scharfschuetze,

What ammunition did you carry in your Model 58? My carry ammo was dictated by the dept. while carrying my personal handgun. I had to purchase "non-standard" ammunition myself, so when we had Winchester ammunition for the dept. issued handguns, I had to carry Winchester in my personal Model 57, which was the excellent 170 gr. Silvertip during that time. When the dept. changed over to Federal ammunition for duty use, then I had to buy Federal 210 gr. JHP .41 caliber ammunition for my use. That was also some pretty good stuff.

The times I was shot at by a "fellow citizen" were once with a .30-30 rifle, once with a .22 rifle and once with a .44 Magnum handgun. They were all at distances beyond reasonable handgun range, and I was carrying a Model 19. In fact, when shot at with the .30-30, the rangemaster at the time had just sent us our new handguns the week before and I had never fired it....... Very bad policy, which changed after that. My main concern was getting something solid between me and the shooter, and they were taken into custody later in the shift, after help responded from over 30 miles away in the case of the .30-30 shooter.

Right after that incident, I put the dept. issued 4" Model 19 back in the box and went back to carrying my personal 6" Model 19 until we changed Sheriffs and was able to carry my Model 57, which had previously been a Ventura PD gun, but I had it rebarreled to 6" by Cheshire & Perez.

Fred

[Scharfschuetze]

What ammunition did you carry in your Model 58?

We were issued the 210 grain LSWC "Police Load" for some time. When out of the city helping the sheriff's office with traffic, I found it to be and excellent load when needing to drop vehicle accident injured livestock. It just poleaxed 'em. I guess it was the .41 Mag's version of the FBI load.

Later on when the Winchester Silver Tips came out, we were issued those and they also proved to be a good load, although they didn't penetrate like the LSWC.

As you know, that .41 Magnum "Police Load" was really just a mid-level load for the .41 and many of us on the department really liked it. It was the .41 Mag's version of the FBI load for the Models 57 and 58.

I still load the 210 grain LSWC boolits over Unique powder to duplicate the old "Police Load" in my Model 58. Whether it needs it or not, I get it out once a year to shoot: if only for the memories.

[ReloaderFred]

Thanks for the reply. The Remington loading of the "Police Load" leaded horribly, due to the almost pure lead bullet and inadequate bullet lube. It was effective on target, but the rounds that I shot almost obscured the rifling in my barrel after only a few rounds downrange.

I really liked the Silvertip round. It was accurate and easy to control.

I had to furnish my own range ammunition for my "non-standard" caliber, so I loaded the 210 gr. SWC over a pretty stout load of SR-4756 for that. I could nail the center of the B-27 target off the barricades with that load at 50 yards all day long.

When I was a patrol sergeant, I stayed on the graveyard shift, even when I had enough seniority to work days, simply because I liked catching burglars. My crew were all seasoned Deputies and all of them could have bid "better" shifts, but stayed with me for a number of years until I promoted to Lt. We were champion burglar catchers! I have some funny stories about those days, but one of them involved a burglar from LA who thought it would be easy to drive to Bakersfield and pull a drugstore burglary in "the sticks". We searched for him for over an hour and 45 minutes before I found him hiding in a small space on the roof of the shopping center, and when I found him down in that hole behind the façade, I told him I'd put a .41 caliber hole through the top of his head if he made any move I didn't tell him to make. After we got the fire dept. out with their ladder to get him (and us) off the roof, as he was being put in the back of a patrol car, he asked, "what's a .41?" One of my Deputies explained that it made a .357 Magnum look like toy, and his eyes got real big. The only other thing he said was, "you sho is persistent. They's never looked for me that long befo"..... It was another good night!

Fred

PS: I always enjoyed getting the fire dept. out in the middle of the night for a ladder. They got paid for sleeping, but if my Deputies got caught sleeping, they'd get fired..........