History of the 38 Special so-called "FBI Load?"

[Thunder Stick]

Facinating thread. I found myself wondering that if the USA had the FBI load during the Phillipines Insurrection of 1899-1902, if the 1911 in 45ACP would have been needed.

[Outpost75]

Facinating thread. I found myself wondering that if the USA had the FBI load during the Phillipines Insurrection of 1899-1902, if the 1911 in 45ACP would have been needed.

Had they simply loaded the .38 Long Colt with a 148-grain full wadcutter similar to today's target wadcutters in .38 Special, at similar velocity, they would have had a reasonably effective load. For use in the small and light-alloy frame snubbies the wadcutter is an excellent choice.

http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2...8-special.html

https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/w...-self-defense/

https://revolverguy.com/wadcutters-for-self-defense/

.38 Special Velocity Tests, November 19, 2019, 50 degs. F.

Firearm:______________S&W Mod37_____S&W Mod12____S&W .38-44HD Remarks:
Barrel length___________ 1-7/8"____________2"____________4"
Cyl. Gap_______________ 0.008__________0.006_________0.006

Ammunition:
Ball M41 130FMJ RA66____732 fps, 23 Sd___742 fps, 30 sd__832 fps, 31 Sd_VN-era military for Airweight revolver
Ball M41 130FMJ WCC68__721 fps, 20 Sd___766 fps, 32 Sd__779 fps, 28 Sd_VN-era military for Airweight revolver
Win. 130FN"Service Grade" 739 fps, 22 Sd___771 fps, 5 Sd__846 fps, 11 Sd_Current production "range" ammo
Avg. of 130-gr. FMJ ammos__731 fps_______760 fps_______819 fps

Speer 135GDHP 4.1B'eye__710 fps, 19 Sd_____772 fps, 18 Sd__808 fps, 20 Sd_Non+PNeeds>750 fps to expand
WRA 148 HBWC_________638 fps, 14 Sd_____687 fps, 9 Sd___694 fps, 20 Sd_VN-era training ammo, standard wadcutter
R-P 148 HBWC 3.2 B'eye__ 770 fps, 9 Sd_____797 fps, 17 Sd___845 fps, 11 Sd_"Full Charge" wadcutter handload.

Rem-UMC 158"Pol.Service"_697 fps, 14 Sd____733 fps, 11 Sd___787 fps, 23 Sd_WW2-era "Police Service"
WRA 158 LRN "Lubaloy"___699 fps, 19 Sd_____720 fps, 14 Sd___756 fps, 7 Sd__WW2-era "Police Service"
WRA "cut-off"_ FN"_______729 fps, 19 Sd_____757 fps, 12 Sd___791 fps, 19 Sd_Nose cut to 1.4"OAL .25" meplat
RWS 158 FMJFN__________659 fps, 33 Sd____694 fps, 20 Sd___681 fps, 10 Sd_Current production "range" ammo
Avg. of 158-grain ammos___696 fps_______726 fps________754 fps

Charge establishment with Magtech 158-grain LRN to approximate "old school" factory lead service
4 grs Bullseye, OAL 1.50"___717 fps, 6 Sd_____752 fps, 19 Sd__782 fps, 11 Sd_RCBS Little Dandy Measure rotor #7
3.7 grs 452AA, OAL 1.50"___702 fps, 13 Sd____719 fps, 10 Sd__742 fps, 20 Sd_RCBS Little Dandy Measure rotor #7

Attachment 265474Attachment 265475

.38 Special Velocity Tests 14 July 2020 Colt Official Police 3" barrel, 0.005" cylinder gap

1944 Rem-UMC 158-grain LRN Police Service____________ 772 fps, 19 Sd No expansion, tumbling on exit of 4th gallon H20 jug
Saeco #348 146-grain DEWC handload 3.5 grains Bullseye_824 fps, 17 Sd No expansion, exited 4th gallon H20 jug
Speer 135-gr. GDHP, Win FP case 5.0 grs Bullseye_______915 fps, 12 Sd_Exp. 0.60” stopped in 4th gallon H20 jug
Winch. 158-gr. JHP, Win FP case 4.8 grs Bullseye________862 fps, 14 Sd_Exp. 0.42” stopped in 5th gallon H20 jug

WCC86 110-grain US Treasury +P+ Q4070______1046 fps, 21 Sd_Exp. 0.65” stopped in 3rd gallon H20 jug
Winchester 110-grain +P X38S6PH_____________969 fps, 30 Sd_Exp. 0.60” stopped in 4th gallon H20 jug
Winch. 110-grain JHP, Win FP case 5.0 Bullseye___994 fps, 12 Sd

[tazman]

Lucky gunner has ballistic gel tests for 38special using some of the ammo mentioned and much more. 38 special is still a very viable cartridge for defensive use.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/rev...cs-test/#38spl

[Piedmont]

Facinating thread. I found myself wondering that if the USA had the FBI load during the Phillipines Insurrection of 1899-1902, if the 1911 in 45ACP would have been needed.

Of course the USA was using the .38 Long Colt and that only gave a reported 750 fps. with a 150 grain. So even if they had the later swaged hollowpoint 158 grain .38 Special projectile to load, the velocity probably wouldn't have met the expansion threshold, so it would have worked as a plain old SWC at maybe 730-740 fps.

[Outpost75]

Of course the USA was using the .38 Long Colt and that only gave a reported 750 fps. with a 150 grain. So even if they had the later swaged hollowpoint 158 grain .38 Special projectile to load, the velocity probably wouldn't have met the expansion threshold, so it would have worked as a plain old SWC at maybe 730-740 fps.

Not a bad guess. Here are chronograph results for .38 Long Colt, .38 Special wadcutter and 150-grain heeled flatnosed:

Attachment 265497Attachment 265498Attachment 265499

[pettypace]

This chart is from MacPherson's book Bullet Penetration and might help to put the wound mass data from the graphs above into perspective:



Generally speaking, the numbers represent a rough estimate of the grams of crushed tissue in the permanent wound cavity created by various projectiles. But, as part of his Wound Trauma Incapacitation (WTI) model, MacPherson ignored penetration beyond 18" (because it would likely be outside the target). He also ignored the final three inches of penetration 18" or less (figuring that the low bullet velocity near the end of penetration would limit the tissue damage). That all makes sense to me. But, for better or worse, the chart also includes a somewhat arbitrary penalty factor which MacPherson imposed on under-penetrating hollow point bullets in order to discourage over-expanding hollow point designs. That doesn't make much sense to me, but does explain the low numbers given for 10" and 12" JHP projectiles.

Just how wound mass might relate to "stopping power" or "combat effectiveness" is subject to debate. But, for whatever it's worth, it's clear that MacPherson figured a .38 wadcutter to produce 50% more wound mass than a .38 round nose bullet and just about the same wound mass as .45 ACP hardball.

[RJM52]

The recent J frames are of harder steels than the old ones in 38 and are chambered in 357 so 9mm is also suitable.

Also note that Smith does not sell an aluminum J frame in 9mm or 357. Only steel or scandium. There is a reason why. An aluminum J frame in 9mm or 357 would have a very short service life expectancy.

Not talking about the standard "Airweight" aluminum frame Js...(also Smith "scandium" framed guns are aluminum/scandium alloy, mostly aluminum) or the newer J-Magnum guns. My 649 is a early 90s vintage gun that I'm not even sure is +P rated. The original 940 started being made in 1991 several years before the J-Magnum.

I also used to shoot Winchester 125 ST .38 Super ammo from a Model 36 made back in the 1970s...

Bob

[35remington]

It is reasonable to presume that Smith made their revolvers from harder steels and rated them for Plus P as a concurrent event that was more than a coincidence. If softer steel was fully adequate there would have been no reason for the change.

[Outpost75]

... The original 940 started being made in 1991 several years before the J-Magnum.
I also used to shoot Winchester 125 ST .38 Super ammo from a Model 36 made back in the 1970s... Bob

I own two S&W 940s. The first one went 1500 rounds of standard-pressure 9mm before developing more than 0.002" of end-shake. The crane arbor was stretched, the gun tightened up and in another 1500 rounds it needed to be tightened again, by that time the barrel-cylinder gap having opened from 0.005" to 0.008 pass/0.009 hold. The second revolver is not used for practice, but only for carry, and so far has 1000 rounds of standard-pressure 147-grain JHPs through it with no issues. The first gun is still in service as a practice gun, but demonstrates about 100 fps velocity loss compared to the second one which is still tight. S&W doesn't service this model anymore, so next time it gets loose I'll have my gunsmith fit a new barrel and re-set the gap.

[Good Cheer]

You fellas have reminded me to get that Lyman #410426 a great big hollow point, so big that from the side it looks like a WFN.

[Petrol & Powder]

It's just a pipe dream but I always thought that it would be cool if S&W could make a small DAO revolver based on the 9mm cartridge instead of based on a 38 Special J-frame chambered for the 9mm Luger.
If you made the cylinder 3/8" shorter and made the "window" in the frame a bit shorter; the frame could be made little heavier without making the entire gun heavier than a 38 Special J-frame.

By taking advantage of the shorter 9mm Luger cartridge, you could make a stronger gun that wasn't heavier.

[Outpost75]

It's just a pipe dream but I always thought that it would be cool if S&W could make a small DAO revolver based on the 9mm cartridge instead of based on a 38 Special J-frame chambered for the 9mm Luger.
If you made the cylinder 3/8" shorter and made the "window" in the frame a bit shorter; the frame could be made little heavier without making the entire gun heavier than a 38 Special J-frame.

By taking advantage of the shorter 9mm Luger cartridge, you could make a stronger gun that wasn't heavier.

We experimented with that at Ruger, but having the standard-length cylinder works better due to the increased expansion ratio, which increases velocity, and with most 9mm loads pressure has peaked before the bullet leaves the cylinder, which mitigates the potential for flame cutting and forcing cone erosion. Did make a few lightweight 9mm SP101s with Titanium frames and 3-inch barrels, but they were to expensive to make as 1987 retail cost would have been over $1000. Several hundred all went to a government customer in sterile packaging with no markings other than serial number and caliber.

I've heard of one which turned up at a consulate in A-stan.

[Petrol & Powder]

Prior to the fall of the Iron Curtain, titanium was rather expensive.

After the Soviet Union fell, the material became a bit more common. When the material became more prevalent, the knowledge concerning how to machine it also increased.

[Outpost75]

Prior to the fall of the Iron Curtain, titanium was rather expensive.

After the Soviet Union fell, the material became a bit more common. When the material became more prevalent, the knowledge concerning how to machine it also increased.

All true, and they could do it now if they really wanted to, but what Bill Ruger told me was, "your job is to sell what's in the catalog, NOT to think up new models. The only exception to this rule is a MILLION dollar order."

[tazman]

Prior to the fall of the Iron Curtain, titanium was rather expensive.

After the Soviet Union fell, the material became a bit more common. When the material became more prevalent, the knowledge concerning how to machine it also increased.

I have a S&W 929 that has a titanium cylinder. Given that, they DO know how to make well machined gun parts out of the stuff.
That 929 is a bit pricey though. I expect a titanium framed revolver would be equally as expensive, at least.

On a kind of connected note, a hammer manufacturer I worked for was beginning to make titanium hammers at the time I was getting ready to retire. Very expensive but, man would they drive nails.

[Petrol & Powder]

Titanium has some very unique properties. The knowledge concerning how to work with it has certainly improved since it became more available in the western world.

In the right applications, titanium can be a solution to a problem. However, it holds some demons too.

During the cold war, the U.S.A. had limited access to titanium and what we could get our hands on went almost exclusively to the military.

Titanium became a bit of a novelty in the 1990's but even when it was more readily available, steel remained far less expensive.