History of the 38 Special so-called "FBI Load?"

[Naphtali]

Recently I bought a case of Remington +P 38 Special 158-grain LSWC-HP ammunition, all manufacturers' versions being referred to as the FBI Load. Prior to making the purchase I wandered the Internet for information and pricing pertaining to 38 Special and 357 Magnum ammunition used in snubnose revolvers. Information evaluating the many selections available, and their comparative prices, caused me to make my purchase among the three versions of this ammunition, specifically choosing Remingon's.

I've been wondering:
- How this ammunition got its moniker;

- When the FBI began using it, and when its use ceased;

- What revolver the FBI used for it - that is, revolver's chambered caliber, its barrel length;

- Why it was selected rather than choosing among 357 Magnum ammunitions;

- In short, what is the history of the 38 Special "FBI Load?"

[Wayne Dobbs]

I don't have the whole story, but the load was originally adopted/used by the St. Louis PD and therefore the alpha characters SPD were included in the Winchester, who first developed the load, product code. It showed up in the early 1970s and was quickly adopted by lots of PDs: Dallas, Miami, Albuquerque, Chicago and the Bureau. My understanding of the FBI adoption is that it was one of those internally engineered processes done because the lead firearms boss at Quantico didn't want to change ammo from RNL, but was maneuvered into doing so by making it look like he'd had "a great idea" that got moved along into formal adoption.

The revolvers the FBI used were S&Ws in .38 Special (various 2.5" and 4" K frames) and .357 Magnum (Model 19s in 2.5 and 4"). The Bureau adopted the Model 13 round butt version in about 1981, but still issued the LSWHP load, because the load worked. On SAC approval in various field offices, the Winchester .357 145 grain Silvertip HP was authorized.

The load got used for real by the many PDs using it and it showed itself to penetrate well with good expansion and that the load was also a good performer in the various 2" guns in play all over the place. The Dallas PD launched literally dozens of bad guys with it and there was little complaint. Allan Jones, now retired from CCI-Speer, was a firearms examiner in the Dallas Crime Lab (SWIFS) and his research showed the load's effectiveness before DPD even adopted it. He wrote a couple of articles describing the process and what they found during their lab testing using 20% ballistic gelatin. His testing was correct and what we found in the Dallas area (and that everybody else discovered) was that that load worked very well, assuming decent placement. It's been loaded by all of the big ammo makers, but I've found that the Remington load was the best of the bunch from several different angles. I still like it and use it.

[Outpost75]

Wayne has it right, I can add a bit more info. I first saw the X38SPD ammo loaded in plain white boxes, nickle commercial Winchester case with red primer sealer, in 1974 at the FBI Academy at Quantico, VA. It was already being used by numerous local PDs, St. Louis, Chicago and Washington, DC among them. The bureau became interested when the FBI Laboratory started receiving requests to process and handle evidence from officer involved shootings around the country, where the ammunition was being used. They were impressed enough with it that samples were requested from Winchester for evaluation.

Once the bureau starting buying the ammunition, additional suppliers were needed to enable competitively bid contracts. Remington quickly jumped onto the bandwagon with its R38S12. Federal was late to the party and had problems getting the bullet cavity geometry, alloy hardness and lubrication right and has trouble meeting the functioning, accuracy and terminal performance requirements. Alot of Federal 38G was sold in normal commercial channels which failed contract acceptance and while some batches of Federal performed OK, it was not consistent from lot to lot. The Remington and Winchesterr stuff was always good in my testing.

At the time the FBI was moving away from the 4-inch Colt Official Police, maintaining those still being used by agents in the field offices, but issuing to new agent classes heavy barrel 3" or 4" S&W round butt Model 10s, (usually 10-6 or 10-8s) with Tyler T-grip adapter. Later they went to .357 Model 13s in similar configuration and held onto those well into the mid 1980s when they started transitioning new agent classes to 9mm autopistols.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Outpost 75,

Did you ever see some of the fairly rare 2.5" RB Model 10s the FBI issued in the 70's? The Michigan State Police also issued them. Had one once that I sold. It's on page one of my sold guns "Book of Tears".

I was close friends with the Dallas Division's Police Training Coordinator agent in the 70s and 80s and then spent nine years on an Organized Crime Task Force in the Dallas Division of the FBI. Got to be in the loop of lots of changes and investigations regarding firearms, ammo and training by virtue of that placement.

[9.3X62AL]

Thank you, sirs. I heard bits and pieces of this account from FBI folks during training gigs I attended, but until now had not read or heard the full story. I agree that the ammunition is excellent for the 38 Special, and I wish my agency had used it instead of the 110 grain +P we used during our 38 Special-required period.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Thank you, sirs. I heard bits and pieces of this account from FBI folks during training gigs I attended, but until now had not read or heard the full story. I agree that the ammunition is excellent for the 38 Special, and I wish my agency had used it instead of the 110 grain +P we used during our 38 Special-required period.

I always thought it was a much better choice than those lightweight JHPs in .38 Special too. The FBI/Metro/Chicago/Dallas load (it was called all those and more) would reliably penetrate through arms, fatty or over muscled torsos, etc. and generally be found under the skin of the shootee on the back side or in their clothing. The bullet generally expanded to .55 - .60 caliber and retained nearly all it's weight. It shot to the sights on the prevalent fixed sight service revolvers and the recoil and blast were manageable by decently trained shooters. It didn't do well on sheet metal but overall, it made a .38 Special work very well. I'd carry the combination today if required and not worry about it being adequate, if not excellent for the task intended.

[Outpost75]

...Did you ever see some of the fairly rare 2.5" RB Model 10s the FBI issued in the 70's?...

Yes, I got in on some of the testing with that one, validating some of the field office complaints. The 2-1/2" barrel guns were rebarreled almost immediately to 3" and the buy spec changed to a 3" barrel because the shorter 2-1/2" barrel precludes installation of a full-length ejector rod.

[Naphtali]

I think I've been making an assumption - that the load was developed for the FBI, probably because of its moniker? Silly assumption in the absence of any pertinent information.

Many Thanks, guys for cogent history. At 33¢ per cartridge, I believed I had an acceptable cartridge at a price low enough that I could afford to practice with the ammunition I would use. Thanks to you, I am pleased as punch. Among the pleasant features are its bearable muzzle blast and relatively modest recoil. In my S&W 640-1 I don't know how fast its 158 grains is "coming out the door," nor do I know how severe is its muzzle flash in dim light.

[Outpost75]

The people who came late to the party called it the FBI load, because the bureau became the largest purchaser of it, and having government procurement and QA provisions influencing its production resulted in a superior round than had it remained an obscure line item in the Olin Law Enforcement catalogue.

The lead HP was later replaced by a 147-grain JHP, and today there are better. 38 Special loads, the 135 Speer Gold Dot and the Winchester Ranger HXT being notable. But if I found a buy on X38SPD or RS38-12, I would not pass it up.

[FergusonTO35]

I once chatted with a retired cop whose career spanned from the 60's to the 90's and he was issued just about every common LE sidearm during that time. He said the FBI load was the most effective handgun round he had ever seen, even more so than the .45 Auto or .357 JHP. He had sat in on some autopsies of perps whose careers were cut short with that round and was impressed with the results. "One per customer is all you need" he quipped.

My standard load is 3.4 grains Bullseye under a 150 grain LSWC. It clocks 840 fps out of my S&W 10-5 and 730 from my little 637, a bit slower than the 850 fps advertised for the Remington factory load. According to my data this is a heavy standard pressure load. if I bumped the charge into the +P range I could probably speed it up considerably, however I am happy with it as is.

[ReloaderFred]

When I was at the National Academy in 1978, we shot heavy barreled 2" Model 10's for all the handgun work. It was a treat shooting the PPC course with a fixed sight, short barreled revolver! We used them on both the indoor and outdoor ranges, but I don't remember what the ammunition was at the time.

Al,

Your department even loaded their own duty ammunition for a period of time in the 1970's. If I remember correctly, they were loading Sierra 110 gr. JHP bullets. Someone pointed out to them that there "may be a liability issue" involved in that practice, so they stopped loading the duty ammunition. They only loaded the practice ammunition. At the time, my department was buying Speer 125 gr. SP Lawman ammunition for our Model 19's, but had problems with hard primers and occasional misfires when we shot up our duty ammunition at the end of each year. When I became rangemaster in 1977, I had the department change over to Winchester 110 gr. .38 +P ammunition, and then when Winchester introduced their Silver Tip ammunition in 1979, we changed over to that for both .38 Special and 9mm, since we were issuing both Model 19's and Model 59's by that time.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[9.3X62AL]

Right you are, Fred. IIRC, the use of reloads for duty ammo ended about a year prior to my hire (late 1977), though we still used hand-cast and hand-loaded practice wadcutters, poured and assembled primarily by sentenced trusties at the Training Center. That practice ended after a few years, and the practice wadcutters were all W-W factory fodder thereafter. GOOD AMMO. "Alibis" came to a screeching halt.

That W-W 110 JHP was reliable in function, and did good work for me one evening in August 1981. It stayed on as our 38 Special duty load for much of my career, only getting changed to 125 JHP +P right around the time I retired (mid-2005). That remains the 38 load at the present time. I used a 2" Model 10 as a back-up war toy to the issued 4" Model 64, since they both ate from the same HKS loaders. I regret selling that M-10 after the conversion to autopistols, it was VERY accurate.

[ReloaderFred]

I loaded all our .38 Special practice ammunition, but I loaded a 158 gr. SWC over a stout charge of SR-4756, which approximated the recoil of our duty ammunition. We had an AmmoLoad machine and I loaded about 60,000 rounds on that machine per year, but we bought our 9mm practice ammunition. One outfit got all their 9mm ammo back, with a note from me saying the only possible use I could see for their product was to put it in a 3 pound coffee can, pour concrete in it, and use it for a boat anchor. The purchasing agent for the county told me I couldn't tell a vendor his product was only good for boat anchors, so I told the agent to read my memo again, because that's exactly what I told them. Rounds shouldn't hit the target sideways at 7 yards, and make it impossible to hit a B-27 target at 50 yards!

Last year I picked up a very nice 2" Model 10 for $250.00, and then Early this summer my UPS driver knocked on my door about 2 weeks before he retired and asked if I wanted to buy his 4" Model 10 for $275.00? I about broke my wrist reaching for my wallet, figuratively, but he was more than willing to wait while I got the cash out of my safe.

Back to the OP's question. The practice load that I loaded for the department approximated the FBI load, but without the hollowpoint. It was very accurate out of our Model 19's, and since we used the PPC course of fire for qualification, it had to be accurate out to 50 yards. We had a Ransom Rest on our range, and I had 10 rounds of our practice ammo at 50 yards that produced a group just under 2" from my Model 19. That's not bad for some ol' "practice" ammo.

Fred

[Petrol & Powder]

Most has been said already but I'll chime in on the name. The "FBI" load is simply the label that most people assign to that load but it has been known by many different handles. Its use was very widespread and it stayed in use for many years.
The cartridge has some real strengths and is often disparaged by idiot gun store commandos due to its low tech appearance. The self appointed idiots couldn't be more wrong. The round shoots to the sights of most fixed sighted revolvers but one of its best strengths is that it has proven to be almost as effective out of 2" barrels as it is from the 4" duty revolver. While it is a little slower when launched from a short barrel, it still performs well.
The FBI load, Treasury Load, Dallas Load, whatever you want to call it; had an excellent track record in the LE days of the 38 Special.
The soft lead bullet equipped with a hollowpoint helped the projectile expand at lower velocities, which probably helped it when fired from short barrels. The fail safe aspect of the round is that is always penetrates well (for a 38 Special) regardless of expansion.

Winchester, Remington and Federal all played with alloys along with the shape and size of the hollowpoint cavity. IIRC, Winchester used a smaller HP and harder lead to maximize penetration but I could be wrong about that, perhaps Outpost can comment?

In any event, the round gets a lot of performance out of the 38 Special.

[Thumbcocker]

Maybe some of you can ID some ammo I have in my assorted stuff. I have worked around law enforcement for 26 years and have on occasion benefitted from assorted clean outs of odds and ends. I have two different types of .38 special loads. One is loaded in LC and WCC brass dated 77 and 78 with crimped in primer the projectile is a JHP but the hp portion is made of some sort of reddish brown fiber stuff. I remember shooting a few into a mud bank at about 15 yards and recovering the projectile with no expansion. The other cartridges are in nickel plated WCC cases from 80-81. The case head says .38 special +P+ with a tapered JHP projectile with a lead nose and small slits around the jacket. Just some interesting stuff I have acquired over the years.

[Hickok]

I pack the Remington .38+P 158 LDHP in my 3" Model 60. I like the idea of a heavy boolit over the .38+P 125 gr. loads.

[9.3X62AL]

Fred, that "practice stuff" you assembled sounds like fine ammunition. I was never real impressed with the work product of inmate labor in any venue. That cons were casting bullets and assembling ammo was.......well, you knew our leadership at least as well as I did.

I appreciate the wide range of caliber choices available currently. I have done away with both 38 Special and 9mm due to the load choices offered for carry; the 357, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP loads are first-rate, though. One of those gets the nod nowadays.

[johniv]

Good info , thanks to all.
John

[ReloaderFred]

Thumbcocker,

The nickel plated brass marked +P+ is what's known as the "Treasury Load". If you have the boxes, there will be a Q at the beginning of the product number, as there was for all Winchester's specialty ammunition. Since there isn't a SAAMI spec for +P+, it was simply used by Winchester to differentiate these loads from their regular product line.

The ammunition was loaded with a 110 gr. JHP bullet to an increased velocity which slips my mind at the moment. I was in negotiation with Winchester for buying this ammunition for our dept. in 1978/79, but they required a liability waiver be signed holding Winchester harmless in any use of the ammunition. County Counsel wouldn't sign the waiver and they wouldn't let the Sheriff sign it, so we waited for the Silver Tip ammunition to become available, which Winchester promised was going to be just as effective. The Calif. Highway Patrol was using the Treasury Load at the time and they were having pretty good success with it.

The CHP had an excellent high speed film of the tests in gelatin blocks that had been made by the Air Force.
When I showed the film to the Sheriff, he thought it was great and that we needed it, but when County Counsel saw the film, their response was, "why would you need such powerful ammunition?", which just reinforced my belief that attorneys undergo frontal lobotomies in law school..... No amount of explanation to County Counsel would change their minds. When the CHP went to other ammunition, their local rangemaster got rid of what they still had on hand by giving it to me. I still have several hundred rounds of it in an ammo can in my shop. The boxes have a red stripe across the top, and are labeled, "for Law Enforcement use only".

Al,

I shot PPC matches at the SBSO range in the 70's while on the dept. pistol team. Nice rattlesnake country, as I remember. We couldn't believe they were loading their own duty ammo, but there it was. Our county had used IL's to cast bullets in the early years, but the practice had stopped quite awhile before I was hired in 1971, and we were buying all our bullets, first from Gilbert Berry (Berry's Manufacturing today) when he was in Colton, and then from Ron Gromak (Gromak Industries) when he was in Santa Maria. We required our bullets be packed into tubes for the AmmoLoad and Ron had a packing machine that would do that, but Gil had to put them in tubes by hand, so he bowed out. Ron was swaging his bullets, and Gil had a bunch of laborers casting in H&G 10 cavity molds in an old chicken ranch. We laughed about that a couple of years ago when we were talking about the old days at the SHOT Show. Gil used to deliver his bullets in an old gray van, with the bumper almost dragging the street from the weight of the bullets. He said he'd threatened to put his son in a van like that several times over the years when sales had slumped for one reason or another........ We did use IL's to recover bullets from the backstop on our range and to smelt them down into 90 pound ingots. We traded those ingots back to Ron Gromak for credit on our next bullet order.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Scharfschuetze]

The nickel plated brass marked +P+ is what's known as the "Treasury Load"

I shot a lot of the "Treasury Load" while at the Federal Academy (FLTC) in Glynco, Georgia. It was pretty snappy stuff, but I didn't trust it to penetrate very deeply. Fortunately in the early 80s, my department's duty ammo was changed to the Winchester Silver Tip round which was a bit heavier.

While not mentioned yet, that I noteced, was that Federal also made a "Nyclad" version of the FBI load.