I also made some card sleeves as you described with good results with birdshot. Bigger balls (.40 that is or buckshot) weren't too good. I'll try to make some liek the old Alcan kwik sert but with card. I made a couple, fold the card in half, fold the bottom (middle) again, some scissor work and voila. Tedious work sure, didn't shoot any yet. Will grab all the pics I promised and post soon.
this is the wad we have here. There's a variation (9g or 5/16oz) for conical hulls, this is for straight hulls, same capacity.
my over powder card material.
the best loads we have here. Left, 4 000 buckshots, loaded with about 13gr of a slower powder (#220) akin to 2400 in burn speed. Right, 1/5oz foster slug, loaded with 9gr of the fast powder I have. I use the 000 buckshot for defense, they pack quite a punch and spread little at SD/HD range. Slugs are not very accurate from this gun (well, .399 slug down .450 barrel...) but hits COM all day long at 10 yards.
162gr Ideal slug vs 92gr Foster. I didn't shoot these yet, have to load some. They re oversized to plastic hull (didn't mike yet, but they enter the hull with some force and expands it to the point the shell won't chamber). Will have to tinker some.
Not much to show or tell yet but will update as a journal for myself (and others if this becomes relevant...).
Found this guy talking about EVA foam as filler wads and he says he got embedded shot and lower velocities.
http://www.duckhuntingchat.com/forum...?f=14&t=160817
2) can't stop thanking to sthwestvictoria. I wouldn't think of slugging the bore at that point.
3) cut some Eva wads to test and they compress and spring back nicely. Will cut a size larger (12mm) so it's snug in the lower part of the shell seated at bullet stem depth per designs posted by outpost75 earlier in other thread.
4) Got some 44-40 brass and will do some eekspiriments without cutting my expensive brass yet (later on this).
You can also use .444 Marlin cases if you cant find metal .410 cases they are not as thick walled as paper or plastic .410 hulls are and paper patch a bullet to what ever diameter you need and slit the paper like a sabot so the paper releases better.
Sir, I appreciate your input, but the main problem is that I live in a hell of a country where we can't get these things. My problem is easily solved with a jug of 2400, Lil'Gun and the likes. But we can't get slower powders or esoteric brass (anything but 38, 32, 380, 22 and 44-40 is exotic here)... I'm trying to make lemonade from my lemons. I can buy more .410 brass, the only problem is that it's expensive, but readily available.
What I want to do is using some scavenged 20yr old 5.45 primers (for paper shells) in that 44-40 brass, so I don't ruin my .410 brass (because I have only one tray of 5.45 and it seems wider than 209, so the brass should be disposable -- as I don't have a .44, I don't care). Since the pressures will be low, I don't believe the primers adapted in this way will pop out or leak around).
Thank you for your idea.
My friend in Italy drills out old Berdan primed 11mm black powder rifle brass to reload with black powder and 209 size shotshell primers, and at low pressures this works fine. He uses mostly cast round balls and a light charge of blackpowder, about a .44-40 or .45 Colt case full, and then places a card wad over the powder and fills the case up to the mouth with oiled sawdust and presses the ball in friction tight. The ball is crimped in by laying a nail across the case mouth and tapping it lightly with a hammer to make a folded rosette crimp, just enough to keep the ball from falling out. He says that it helps to cut down fouling to duplex just a tiny a mount of any fast burning pistol or shotgun powder over the primer, about a .22 LR case full is enough. Greatly reduces the fouling. The oiled sawdust also helps sweep the fouling out with each shot.
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Outpost, thanks. that was what i had in mind. i've read some reports of this being done with 11.5mm Comblain, 577 and 577/450 Martinis and thought why not? I moved to another home recently and some of my stuff is still packed... there's a holiday coming next week let's see if i can unpack it drill and load some 44 cases, as well as other things...
Oiled sawdust? interesting.
Like a grease cookie or lubed wad?
Since its loose, can you explain how he loaded it without contaminating the powder?
____________
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Read the post again. Card wad inserted over powder before pouring the sawdust in.Originally Posted by cpileri
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Well until the mid 90s CBC/Magtech loaded all paper shells with an OP card, sawdust/paraffin filler wad, shot, OS card, roll crimp. Not the greatest stuff but I sure miss the paper shell's smell...
my bad. still interesting; how well does it scrub the bore compared to a lubed wad?
____________
"...the civil libertarians and rationalists who are ever on the alert to oppose tyranny "failed to take into account man's almost infinite appetite for distractions." In 1984, Orwell added, people are controlled by inflicting pain. In Brave New World, they are controlled by inflicting pleasure. In short, Orwell feared that what we fear will ruin us. Huxley feared that what we desire will ruin us. This book is about the possibility that Huxley, not Orwell, was right.” -N.Postman
I've used mostly for black powder rounds and for those it seems to do better thana fiber shotgun wad.
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today i started drilling the 44-40 cases with a thinner bit. Wow just found it has a lot of brass in the web and am doubtful it will work with the stubbier 5.45 primers (still have to find and unpack them to check). Found 3 berdan primed cases and could not drill them well centered (from inside out). Kept one intact for measure purposes. The boxer primed drilled nicely. Got 7 done. Next week on the holiday I'll get the other stuff and try the odd primers and see if I can load something. Still having to do a lot of stuff in the new home, like installing appliances etc... not much time.
On the Berdan primed cases, try drilling from the outside in, using the firing pin indent on the fired primer as a guide.
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Outpost75, i tried that but the primers were so backed out (when i picked in the range I thought they were hot loaded) the bit got the rest of the primer and sent it flying (not very sharp only one I had that size) around so I turned that case and the other one (saved one for a powder measure as mentioned) and drilled from inside.
found the 5.45 primers and they measured about 6.4mm or ~.25". will try the 1/4 bit. the 209 primers for the .410 and 32ga here measured about 5.6mm so they're not interchsngeable.
Also got the 12mm punch and made some EVA wads they enter tightly in the brass cases and probably will make a better seal inside it and inside the big bore. I find hard to believe that little things, 410 plastic wads are capable of sealing something. there's not enough material there to expand. will pay attention next time and see if I csn cstch any from factory (cbc/magtech is usong a lot more gualandi than anyhing else. I dissassembled some shells, found some assorted gualandi wads at the range and had a talk with the only wad maker here and he said they're importing more thsn buying from them. It's a great way to support national producers. I did my part and ordered what my money could buy of .410 and 12 wads from him).
another bit (no pun) of slow progress again. Finished unpacking my stuff and got the primers out with the mic... It showed 6.59mm. Messed with the 44-40 cases left one as is, destroyed a bunch in the process and ended with 4 usable cases and one ended with primer pocket too large (will try to peen it later. Used a 8mm (5/16?) bit to countersink the pocket, drilled with 1/4" bit and it was too tight. Not knowing what's the next bit size and being short of cash this month (too many bills...), used a chainsaw file I have and a piece of #40 emery cloth to work the pockets. One was too wad by a little and the 5.45 primer is loose. The flashholes in this primer when seated are almost flush with the bottom of the case (there are two lateral holes). Loaded the 4 cases with ~28gr (1.8g) of Elephant 3fg (at last found it for sale here), a card wad and a round ball. One ball was slightly smaller than the case so I patched with cloth. All 4 had the balls sealed around with white glue.
Didn't make any more BP loads now forgot to check if the range allows it and don't have any other place to shoot.
well this is a bit offtopic, but here's what I could do differently with the 44-40 brass.
middle pic, third round from left was actually shot as factory load from the judge. No accuracy and lots of unburned powder, of course. Too dumb to remember this, I forgot to thin the rim, so I can't have a full load, just one at a time. Will shoot these as is. Made more 3, but thinned the rims so they are a better fit, as well as the primer hole was better countersunk.
I loaded more 2x440~ with the wad seated at boolit depth (~.311 from .45 colt case mouth) but didn't shoot any yet. Have a bunch of ammo to try, pattern, just don't have time now...
Today I went to the range, but unfortunatedly all my duplex ball loads failed miserably (instead of bang all went pffff). I probably got a bad tin of berdan primers (just opened a new one), because had other bloopers with birdshot, buck and single ball I loaded to pattern and test penetration.
Also, I probably made something wrong with the BP loads. All them shot, but not loud and I could see the ball flying in front of the flames. At least I liked the pyro show and the smell... Put 28gr (weighted as I don't have a measure, card wad and a .440 ball) of Elephant 3FG in each case, started by 5.45 primer. Maybe the old primer was not good or I didn't compress enough? Anyway, I still have to thin the rim of the cases a bit.
I'm probably ending the smokeless double ball experience here. I'm focusing in the single ball loads now and will eventually try doubles with BP.
As for the single ball today I shot a bunch of A4 writing paper (mostly my wife's old college stuff) and got the following penetration results:
- Ideal slug: 0.82"
- Ideal slug with spent 209 primer in cavity: 0.82"
- brass case .440~ round ball: 1.22"
- 1/5oz factory foster slug CBC/Magtec: 1.22" with a hair more damage than the ball
All projectile deformed badly but didn't break apart.
I don't know how paper translates to ballistics gel or how much damage the slug can do, but seems the right single projectile for this gun is the ancient ball. I'll focus in putting a little more power behind it and work accuracy.
The range today was a sad affair, it didn't have light beyond 10meters, so I tested only at this distance some other loads, like 3x00 buckshot which patterned ok.
Will post some pics later.
Small update.
Can't upload pics, I broke my cell phone where the pics are stored.
I also think I found why my black powder loads didn't work. When I drilled for shotgun primers there was a lot of brass around. These aren't 209 primers, they're labelled 5.45/50, for paper shells (bought them 20yrs ago for my 32ga) and the flash holes are lateral, two small ones. Looking inside the cases they have little space for the fire go. I countersunk the hole inside the case and reprimed. Voi-la, a much better fit, the flash holes are very visible. Will retry it.
Meanwhile I managed to resize some 410 brass to almost original shape and will try single ball loads using some QuickLoad simulations (I will workup from the known 6.0gr load).
Snail progress...
I haven't read through the whole thread Victor, so my apologies if I've missed things that you have answered.
Provided that you can get Magtech 410 brass (and presumably large pistol primers, which is what they take), black powder, and preferably 45 Cal soft lead round ball, you can make a quite respectable load.
I'd start with 30 grs BP and work up from there. You'll want some fiber wads as a cushion. If you can put a crimp in the brass to hold the ball, great. If not, no worries, Scotch tape to hold the ball will be fine.
start with 30 grs and work up to 35. I wouldn't go above although you could probably safely go as high as 40 grs. If BP is available, it is safer to experiment with than smokeless. 30 - 40 grs BP under 200 grs bullets were safe for 19th century SAAs, so your modern steel Judge should be fine.
Over powder card (thick cardboard) offering a good gas seal.
Then fiber wad - soaked in a BP lube will help the gas seal. Make the wad column up so that when fully compressed with a dowel or similar, the ball sits above it half in and half out of the case mouth. If you can crimp the brass, ideal. If not, a piece of scotch tape to hold it in place will be fine.
This should give you something like 800 - 850 fps. The tighter to bore the ball size, the greater length you will reach with accuracy. You may also pick up some FPS.
Good luck.
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