45 colt-ish wildcat in Judge help needed

[victorfox]

C-, problem is this caliber, as well as the .444 are restricted and mostly unknown here, as magtech AFAIK doesn't load them and it's the only ammo maker one could buy restricted ammo and components (and black market for these two I guess is not that hot... LOL). Just a weird curio you all may not know: Would you believe possessing an ammo component like fired cases is considered a felony by the law if you don't have the papers??? (of course they would need to get you with them or have a warrant to search your house).

After slugging the bore I got somewhat frustrated, but after finishing some chores and taking a shower, I got some ideas... can't say if they are feasible for now:

1) copy the hornady triple defense load (which is not available here) concept: a hollow base slug with a ball pushing the skirt outwards. Hopefully I can copy Uncle Dino's stacked buckshot die (and have a machinist make one for a little sum) to swage such slugs...

2) copy the british webley .455 hollow base bullet in some way, hoping the mass forward is enough to stabilize such slug and the base expands to fill the bore.

3) stick to duplex ball loads, assuming the neck loading attempt works and forget about single projectile loads.

4) think about something else and if all fails, sue taurus for selling an out of spec product. If we can't have the .45Colt shooting ability, they should at least bore the thing to meet .410 only dimensions and tolerances. While I'm not sure of the success, probably we can settle an agreement or something.

I really don't want to give up this gun, because the other options would be .38spl and .380 for which I can't reload (you know, the army permit stuff et al).


left row: 9x3/8oz mixed birdshot loads (#8 to #6), then 3x3/8oz BB shot loads (just to pattern the gun which I didn't yet). center front: 4 neck loaded 2x ~.43" balls. right row: 1x ~.43" round ball, seated like shotshells, then 5 neck loaded 2x.40" balls (marked 2*4).

[victorfox]

C-, sorry. I've been sleeping too little, working too much. I guess I can understand now what you meant, and I figure I can cut the .410 case to .45Colt length and load some sort of hollow base in that shorter case, since it will be in fact a fire-formed .45Colt case and will accept a .45 slug. Is that what you were saying?

I don't plan doing anything else this w/e, except going to the range and shooting those loads without going to the ER afterwards...

[cpileri]

no prob man,
I think you ought to shoot some of what you have, collect data, and we can go from there

[victorfox]

I went to the range and having too little time, couldn't try to save components or even pattern the gun decently. In short, the neck loaded stuff worked nice and the .40 ball loads had some signs of low pressure, like blackened mouths, but all shot nice (no squibs). Also had no difficult extraction, except for that bad chamber. Had one birshot shell dissassembled by recoil (tap, tap, tap, tap...). BTW, recoil with 2x ~43/44" ball was STOUT, not a sharp blow, but a serious push, like I imagine 45Colt would do (someone can confirm this?). The 2x.40" recoil was a lot milder, and 3/8oz is about a .38spl 158gr std load.

Found the primers quite ugly in some cases neck-seated, but cbc berdan is bad (too thin), so I can't say how it was going. Both balls hit the target about 4" apart at 10meters (33ft), but since I was in a hurry, I can't tell I was the culprit. The single ball loads grouped around 4", about 6" high of POA. I shot the dissassembled shell with only overpowder wad as a "blank", noise was not the deep "boom" I had in the previous loads and the primer actually popped proud of case head... surely not an overpressure signal, I believe it is because the chamber is "gripping" the case, not letting it go back to the breechface.

The birdshot loads at same distance were fine, even distributed, but also shot a bit higher. 3/8oz is a nothing of shot, but there were no holes in the pattern, was quite good to my eyes, but I had no way to measure this time.

The wads disintegrated, and since I had no medium to "catch" them I just found their layers scattered around the range. The overshot wads were more valiant, since I found them nicely dented with birdshot and round balls.

All in all, I'm very pleased my gun didn't exploded and I have all my fingers to type this and had no bloopers, just a little powder residue (which in this case is not a consistent sign, since this power only burns well in shotshell, with the wad seated over powder).

Have to workout the accuracy and try to measure penetration or find some rare soul who has a chrono and see if he agrees to let me throw buckshot over his expensive ware...

Thank you all men, I'll be posting pics soon, of the fired cases, primers and bring some other comments.

[victorfox]

the cases didn't change much. you can see perforated primers, but this is not a problem with the loads imo, since not all had this problem, but a problem with this particular thin primer (2nd and 3rd from right). At right the primer popped out a little (blank).

Second pic you can see soot at case mouth from (1-3 left).

The cases I used to shoot the 2x43/44 balls changed nothing externally. The birdshot loads had some expanded, some not at all, as well as the .40 ball loads.

All shots penetrated fully a double layer of cardboard boxes and still hit the "berm" behind (a wall of stacked wood and dirt). Couldn't get any ball.

I don't know when I'll have time again to fully check and try other loads, but heck this worked! I need to work out accuracy from single balls/slugs, do more tests with double balls etc.

I'll try to summarize the loads.
1)CBC load data for 45Colt with 200gr LRFN is 6.6gr of #216 from cbc/magtech (probably burns at W231 and RedDot velocities). 720fps from 4" barrel.

Load data for .410 using brass cases is 6.6gr of #250 powder, which is 0,05ms faster burning than #216 with 5/16oz (9grams) of shot, 1200fps from 26" barrel.

2) I used 6gr of #216 under: 3/8oz birdshot (mixed #8, #7 and #5, also BB size), 2x.40" round balls (~200gr), 2x.43/.44" round balls (~230gr), 1x.43/44" ball.

3) wad was made of adhesive tape cores (the type used to seal boxes) at .20" (5mm), seated at "neck ring" height, in the case of the double ball loads, overshot card was about .09" (~2mm), held in place with either white glue or nail polish. Glue is good, nail polish not so. All cut with a 7/16" punch.

3.1) components: powder, overpowder wad, shot, overshot card. No sleeves or wads between balls were used this time.

4) accuracy with single balls were mediocre, birdshot patterns were acceptable (no holes, but not much shot either), double balls ranged from "where did that go?" (.40"x2) to consistent 4" apart at 10m (2x.43/44).

Thank you all again. Sorry for not having any other pics for now, neither of targets, or components. Hopefully the next batch, with shot cups/sleeves will improve and I'll try to have better and more interesting pics.

[victorfox]

New update.Did a hand pass of steel wool and brass brush to the chambers and the shells were inserted/extracted more easily.Today I got some #400 sandpaper cut a long sleeve to a .410 spent shell and by hand slowly and carefully did some passes in and out and circular to all chambers.Now every shells goes in and out ok but the chambers are still a bit rough. Next time will be using finer grit.Loaded another box of brass shells, but this time I soaked the card wads with paraffin and they sucked 50% their weight ( were about 5gn dry now they are about 7.5 or 8 gn). Noticed they become more firm as slippery (what I was expecting). Will shoot this batch and try to collect them. Also sealed all loads with white glue on the overshot wad.I think next batch will be loaded with an oversized (about 12mm or 1/2" EVA foam wad to act as a seal since the case mouth is actually smalles than the barrel and I'm probably not getting a tight fit in the end. EVA is easily comprisable and probably will be an asset improving powder burn and velocity.Will post next range report. Thanks

[victorfox]

Here I go again with little data to show. I've been working too much and had a lot of personal stuff to solve like moving etc. My BIL came to visit us and he was pushing me to shoot with me. Since I can't say no to range time we went and shot my .45/410 shells. Well... I didn't take pics again and didn't bring any material to catch balls whatever. We had a nice time he shooting the most but what I found gave me a little perspective on what to leave behind and what to pursue.We set targets at 10m (33ft) because I know he's not a great shot me either... And at that distance I could get a good idea by spotting when he shot.
1) the duplex .40 balls is a waste of time. They spread in a crazy pattern all over the target one ball hits close to poa (me shooting) and the other scatters around badly. Will use the remaining balls in the 12 or melt them, or make a last attempt in a single ball load in plastic hulls. They showed a lot of soot at case mouth.
2) on the other hand duplex .440~ balls were awesome! I don't know if it's because of the paraffined card wads, but this time they grouped at about 1" /1 1/2" apart and close to POA! they were awesome and I'll try to make it my #1 load. If they spread the double at 20m I'll be getting 2 to 2 1/2" patterns good enough for defense and medium size varmint works. We also shot one of those double steel poppers (big and small circle),and we hit them a lot with this load (I may be exaggerating but it swung about the same with the .40SW we shot later -- my .22 handgun barely moved it).
3) my own loads of 00 and 000 buck were too bad to write about. Since I can't get those long .410 wads here I made card sleeves and they didn't improve a thing neither for the 2x40 mentioned.
4) couldn't find any wads around either they vaporized or went ahead and got lost. Found a lot of over shot wads in good condition.
5) all in all it was a good hour spent with the BIL and I had the chance to shoot a .40SW (Taurus 840) the first time in life. Tomorrow I'll be loading more shells an focus on the double .440~ balls.

[victorfox]

spent the weekend out and shooting. Had some enlightening to my dumbness...1) duplex ball loads shot ok when the wads were dipped in paraffin. Without it was the patterns open a lot even at say 5yrds.2) worst of all the double balls have the power to penetrate a 5gal can both sides but won't penetrate a 3/4" board at about 3m.^3) I shot a living tree for the sake of science (tree was plastered after) and a single .440~ ball penetrated about 2".4) the boys were shooting a farm duck for the sake of dinner with a .22 and since we're gonna kill the bird, I decided to give a try on the 2x440 loads. To my disappointment, one of the ball broke one wing and penetrate the back. Upon cleaning the bird we found one of the balls lodged in the chest and the other that went in the back probably went down with guts. The bird was already dead by the .22s. Penetration was ridiculous.5) single balls had a lot more power, one thing I overlooked, the load was pushing twice the weight with same powder charge (and to my understanding with less pressure due to neck seating so less velocity). They penetrated fine both the board mentioned, a pole of about 3.5" diameter and accuracy was acceptable at about 5m. I'm a mediocre handgun shooter.I recovered some balls and took pics of some targets. Except the bird... Posting soon.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

Well, that was certainly one dead duck. And, those .440 balls aren't too hard to find before you chomp down on dinner.

[victorfox]

R. Charlie, indeed it was a dead and tasty duck . Too bad the .440~ balls didn't penetrate enough, it only broke one wing and stopped there, in the chest, and the other ball entered the back and didn't go to the chest (probably stopped in the guts).

1) ball recovered from duck wing (yes, it's a fishing weight)


2) ball recovered from tree. Shot was taken at about 35yards. I counted 38 long paces, so it could be a bit more.

All the mess in the tree bark was done by the ball, I only excavated the wood in pursuit of ball. Penetration at this distance was about 2" and could insert part of my pinky finger in the cavity...

3) recovered balls (double load) and over powder wad (finally!). This load only dented the board.


4) Another couple shots on the same board. All the holes were done by single .440~ balls. The double ball load only dented the board. Distance was about 5yards. Group was not too bad. Second pic is back of board. There was a big termite mound behind but I was too lazy to dig them.


5) pole shot by single ball load (I said it was about 3.5" diameter, looks more like 4"). Ball penetrated both sides. Ball was not catched, it penetrated and kept going.

[victorfox]

Still on 5) The back of the shot pole.


6) I shot this banana plant at about 5 paces with store bought 4-000 buckshot loads. You can see how tight is the pattern with holes almost touching each other. This is the load I keep the gun loaded at home. It should penetrate about 14-18" of ballistics gel (and it exited the banana tree -- which is not hard -- and kept going.


Didn't bring any slug loads (my BIL spent them in the range...) to test.

All in all, unless I work out the seating depth and/or some sort of better crimp and wadding I believe I won't get any good penetration with double balls. On the other hand, I learnt the paraffin dipped wads made groups tighter than bare cards. Also, the single ball loads were very decent, accuracy and power-wise (still need further improvement). I made some small shot loads(3/8oz), to the boys to try (they were delighted and confused about a shotshell-revolver...) and we managed to destroy some fruits at about 10yards.

[PerpetualStudent]

From "Parafin Dipped Wads" I'm inferring you're doing stacked card loads? Improvised overpowder card, felt or cork for height, and an overshot card?

Not to derail the thread but despite looking into it, I haven't run across much info on what overpowder cards ought to be made of other than "cardboard" (and there are so many types of cardboard). I know that plenty of people have improvised them safely but without ordering a set from BPI I've no real idea what the card is supposed to be like.

[victorfox]

PS, Yes i punch cardboard stock with a 7/16 punch but found the dry over powder cards disintegrated easily after the shot. Then I melted paraffin and dropped a few and let them soak then put aside to dry. These "dipped" wads were a lot better and I guess they improved accuracy over dry card. Felt is d*** expensive here and buying anything gun related from USA like BPI or midway won't happen as the Army banned all imports of gun related stuff so I can't legally ask a permit to do so and don't want to go to jail doing it illegally...
You can see an example of this card I punch at #3 pic besides 2 round balls (at right).
I'm out of time and money these days to test any further. All I did summed up as single ball works, double ball sucks, slugs are out of question due to many different dimensions (eg chamber, throat, bore)
I have a few slugs (ideal) I bought but will have to adapt some. Inside the brass case they are loose, in plastic cases are so tight they show the ridges outside (try to post a pic later). I plan to cut a plastic hull to 45 length and load this slug like a bullet with wads. The fit is so tight I probably won't need a crimp and they won't chamber the .410 section of the cylinder. Boy if only I could load metallic... I'd go with a .38 and be happy.
At least I know this gun can perform well with factory 000 loads and single balls as well as birdshot. After I did the cylinder work myself had no more extraction problems.which I forgot to add.

[victorfox]

Also when I have the time I'll try cork as a filler as I have some and is affordable. Got a nice piece of 1/2" EVA and got some good talk about them used as filler by some guys here.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

For overpowder wads, I use the cardboard backing from a writing paper tablet. I always load at least two. Maybe a couple more if some wad column height increase is needed. If a lot of wad column increase is needed, I use fiberboard. Since it comes in about three-quarters of an inch thickness, I must slice the wads to the desired thickness. For overshot wad, I use a single wad from the writing paper tablet. I use these in .410 blackpowder shells, .44 mag shotshells, and .44 WCF shot cartridges. I have also in each one used Remington plastic shot wads with great success. For some of the loads I trimmed the cup length down.

For 12 ga muzzleloader wads, there is no equal

[victorfox]

Hi Charlie. For the over shot I use about the same material. For over powder I'm using thick scotch tape cores at about .20". What is this fiberboard? I googled and came with mdf and furniture material. Maybe I can get this here to try but under another name. I'll try to post a pic of my wad material later. Another idea I guess it was Perpetual Student who gave me sometime ago was black powder. I dislike to clean the soot (shot only two on this gun till date) but if they work fine why not? Have nothing to lose here, just clean more thoroughly. On the bucket list for next...

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

Fiberboard

Decades ago, the generic term was Celotex, even though it was an actual brand name. It is usually black in color, almost looking like they sprayed it with tar. Check out this link to see what it is like.
http://www.blueridgefiberboard.com/

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

Overpowder Wads

Your scotch tape overpowder wads may be melting. Do you ever recover any of them? Are they intact and undamaged?

Try the writing tabled cardboard. The one against the powder must be dry. The next ones in the stack can be soaked in crisco or some bullet lube. Make sure they are not set enough to leak by or soak the was against the powder.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

Shotcups

If you cannot get plastic .410 shotcups, you could try making some paper or think cardboard tube like cups. I'd try them slit into two pieces lengthwise first. Being fired through a revolver, make sure they are clearing the barrel after each shot until you are confident they don't hang up in the transition between cylinder and barrel. The Remington plastic shotcups I use have always made the trip out the end of the barrel in my .44 mag. The case I use are .444 marlin cased annealed and tapped into my cylinder, then cut to length so they are full length of cylinder. I have to thin the rim and re-swage the primer pocket. A "shotcup" will keep balls smaller than bore centered as well as reducing scraping, scuffing, etc.

[victorfox]

Charlie thanks for the link. Never seem this material around have to take a look at the local Leroy Merlin...
As for the wads, no, I'm not using tape, only the card cores made of heavy card where the tape is rolled. I get used cores at work then cut in Hal and punch them. Some sizes work great as over shot. I also use the hardcovers of notepads with good results. For some reason the last batches of OP wads became confetti unless soaked in paraffin. I posted a pic of a recovered wad above besides the 2x440~ balls that bounced from the board I shot.
I have some .410 wads but they aren't the long sleeve types like those sold in America. They are fine for birdshot and I cut some petals off to try earlier with .40 balls and slugs. They can hold the bottom of the ball.
As you can imagine I'm not a bit pleased with the results but at least I now know what to try next. The goal was to get a good powerful double .440~ ball load seated in the neck to reduce pressures. I believe I'll have to up the load a bit or add more wadding since probably I'm having little pressure.