45 colt-ish wildcat in Judge help needed

[victorfox]

Hi folks. The title may be a little misleading. Please let me explain.I have a Taurus judge that's.410 only and smoothbore (I don't live in America and .45 colt is a restricted caliber here but we can get the shotguns below 12ga with any barrel length. 12 must be at least 24" bbl and no rifling).Went out and shot some slugs. Accuracy is ok at 10yds enough for SD as well as the 000-Bk loads that pattern about 4 or 5" at same distance. Since I could only buy a .38 or .380 here for defensive handgun I chose the .410 because I can't reload metallic only shotshells.Shot some magtech brass light reloads of 3/8oz pushed by 6gr of a fast burning powder (about the same as w231 tad faster than Unique afaik) and it shot nicely and patterned well. Brass extraction was very easy but the cases fireformed into something that resembled an old 40-70 rem case. The base swelled some and there's a distinct ring at .45 colt case length.An idea came to my mind and I don't know yet if it's plain stupidity or not. But since this gun just lacks the rifling because of stupid gun laws and .45 colt and .410 are close to each other in pressure I thought I could use a recipe provided by magtech for the .45 colt, which calls for 6gr of the same powder I used but with a 225gr bullet but instead of using a bullet seating same cards wads I used in the shotshell just at case canelure and put 2 .40 balls (barrel diameter is 11mm full length cylinder choke).I'd be happy if I could push these 2 balls at about 700or so fps (recipe claims 750fps for .45 colt) but I'm somewhat convened about pressures. I can't buy slower powders even if magtech makes them because that would be quite impossible to get Army permit needed -- you must have the permit for 2years among other stupidities).We also don't have pressure labs here to send ammo for testing. Anybody has tried something like this at least in loading .45 colt roundballs?I was not sure if this was the correct place to post this and if not some mod please move it to the right place.TIA.

[Smoke4320]

First I am curious as to where your are with crazy sounding laws ?

second I don't see why that would not work .. you should surly be underpressured with the smaller that bore dia balls
11 MM bore is our .433 dia Balls being .40
actually may have issues with not building Enough pressure for the shotgun shell (bloopers/ squibs)
I am sure there will be other more knowledgeable than me answer as well

[victorfox]

Hi there Smoke.

I live in Brazil... It's already communism here.

I'm a bit concerned because magtech/cbc emailed me about 9grams (5/16oz) being the maximum for 6gr powder being maximum...

Since I'm giving more room, seating the wads away from the powder, i thought it would be safe with more shot, specifically the 2 round balls, which in my scale gives about 200gr, even if i seated it a little deeper (like in emulating a 45 colt round). Don't have idea about the MV, but if it throws 2 .40 balls at 700fps that would put a hurt in a SD/HD scenerio until I can grab "the" shotgun (12 pump).

Brazilian law is one of the world's worst. Here's a brief.
* allowed: .177, .22 and .236 airguns
* not allowed: muzzleloaders, cap and ball, military calibers (223 and 9mm)

* allowed with Federal Police permits: .22lr (both rifle and handgun), 25acp, 32acp and s&w, .38spl (both rifle and handgun), .380acp (both rifle and handgun -- there's a very expensive ar carbine in this caliber), 44-40 (rifle only), any barrel length shotgun from 9mm (9.1x40 or n.º3 garden gun) to 16ga, 12ga with at least 24" barrel, regardless of stock type. The judge here is considered a handgun.

* allowed with Army permits: airguns above .236 (6mm), any handgun with more than 300J ME with commercial loads, any rifle over 1000J ME with commercial loads, metallic handloading, hunting (yeah, you read right and only boar and water buffalo are being authorized), target shooting, ipsc etc, carry your unloaded firearms, collecting firearms.

NOT ALLOWED: carry your guns wether loaded or not, no carry permits are issued.

The army won't let you buy ammo components, presses, dies and such if you don't have the permit and the law says you must have (and pay princely) it for at least 2 years before you can buy restricted caliber firearms, buy ammo components for reloading (except local made shotshell components, which you can buy at the LGS), a reloading press etc. Army Officers will regularly visit your house to see what you have and what you don't etc. Everything costs an arm and a leg. A regular Remington rifle in .308 for example, costs the same as an entry model car. A Glock (in 380 of course, the restricted calibers cost more) runs to the today's currency equivalent of US$ 1650 (~R$ 6500).

Bottom line. *** country regarding liberties, only tourists may find it entertaining.

[DougGuy]

Many years ago I loaded .45 Colt with two round balls over 8gr of Unique for a load that was safe in an old Colt or S&W. I didn't chrony the load but it was more than any 700fps. More like 850fps.

You would be guessing on pressure but it's worth a try?

[victorfox]

Hi Doug. I think so. Here ammo is very expensive too and you can't buy what you want. Purchases are registered and even if they weren't, they are so expensive I don't have the kind of money needed to train et al. I can load a shell for about BRL$ 0,50 (therefore a box for BRL$ 12,50), while the loaded shells sell for BRL$ 90 per 25. It's about US$ 24 per box! And our wages aren't even close to American wages and everything costs a lot, as well is heavily taxed...

If the kind of load reaches 800 or 850fps I would be a lot happier. You know, if I could handload metallic, I'd never fuss with a .410 handgun. I'd go with a .38 handgun and rifle combo and reload for them. I reload my 12ga shells and it's a lot cheaper than buy shotshells (they go for BRL 120 per 25, while I reload for about 30/box). I only keep it loaded with store bought for defensive use, for training I use my reloads.

Thanks again folks

[runfiverun]

if you can get the shot shells, 410 regular plastic ones, stick with those.
use their wads and just load the bigger balls in the wad.
many here just take out the bird shot and replace it with a similar weight of large 'shot' [about 3 pellets worth] you change nothing as far as pressure just the way the pay-load is shaped.

[Smoke4320]

those laws just sound insane to me ..

5r5 is right on the 410 shotgun shells .. If can get the plastic hull ones just remove the shot and replace with same weight bigger balls
then you can use them over and over

[Buckshot Bill]

I think I would go with plastic too, easier to deal with than brass but as long as the payload and powder charge is the same weight I don't see a huge problem. I did something kind of similar a long time ago in a 45-410 single shot rifle. I fireformed brass cases, then loaded them with .452 conical bullets and the same dosage as a heavy .45 LC load. It really improved the accuracy because the projectile didn't have a large jump to reach the riflings. That would not be important in your case.

Remind me never to move to Brazil, sounds like the laws there suck. I hope America never gets that bad off.....it would probably end up in lots of bullets flying before it got that bad here though.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

I have loaded 2.5 inch shotshells with a Remington plastic wad, which has petals, with five #1 buckshot. At 25 yards, the group could be covered with the palm of your hand. I did not attempt any sort of crimp, but sealed the load into the hull with a generous amount of wax from a burning candle. As some have suggested, replacing the shot from a factory load will work. I have the Magtech all brass shells, but have not yet loaded any up.

BTW, I have some buckshot and shotshell data for the .410 from various sources. PM me if you wish me to scan and send.

As far as restrictive gun laws, wow. You have my condolences. Hopefully, both our locations will someday improve. It is obvious, in both locations, that the government fears the people.

I'll be following this thread, as it is of interest to me.

[victorfox]

Man you have no idea on what we do to keep our guns running and firing...As for changing the store bought and changing shot size I forgot to mention the factory loads as puny 5/16oz. And expensive. I reload the plastic hulls with 3/8oz (max) and there's still the cost factor. Since I can only buy berdan for brass (boxer primers are restricted!), and 209 primers costs about 3x the price of berdan I usually reload a lot more brass than plastic except for the 12. Didn't try them yet on it don't know if it would cycle the pump...I usually buy only slugs and 000-buckshot loads. I refuse to throw my money away on those stupid little 5/16oz loads. Then I reload with 3/8oz which is not great either but surely is a step up. I stack 3 00-buckshot in the wad with flour for buffer. Patterns quite well at about 10yd.Then when I fireformed the brass into a super long .45 colt I thought it would work more or less like the wooden capsule 44 xl game getter but inside the case... And without capsules just cards, .40 balls buffer over shot cards and glue

[Cap'n Morgan]

those laws just sound insane to me ..

And Brazil has the highest number of gun murders in the world. The bad guys seems to have no trouble obtaining handguns.

http://www.latitudenews.com/story/wh...lence-newtown/

Despite the media spotlight drawn by tragedies like Newtown and Aurora, ghettos are where most of America’s gun violence takes place. America’s rate of gun murders is 3.3 per 100,000 people, the highest in the developed world. Brazil, whose worst favelas Muggah compares to conditions in Somalia or the Congo, has a much higher rate of 18.1.


The irony? Brazil actually has much stronger gun control laws than the U.S.

[victorfox]

Hi there Capn! What you say is truth. Gun control is not about crime is about control. We have a communist regime growing here since 2003. There are about 10 congressmen fighting against this gun control stuff but they are 10 against 500 communists.I don't want to be an outlaw because life is already hard without being so, but yes if someone wants and have the money the black market is open for full auto guns, ak47s, fals, ar15 variants et al. Just check the drug lords in Rio de Janeiro...There are 2 NGO involved in the gun rights defense here and there's hope.The argument of more guns more crime used by the leftist freaks was already spanked to death in books numbers and facts and we don't believe a word of this.Aa for the street thug they use battered old guns or they rent better ones with crime lords. After all since most of their victims are unarmed here is a criminal paradise. Then there are the criminal protection laws...

[PerpetualStudent]

I just saw this brochure in the last Ballistic Products Catalog: http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Bro...info/00BBX410/

that may be a good source of published data for what you're trying to do. I don't have it, so I can't say whether they would be what you're looking for.

I have their buckshot reloading manual and they have about a page and half in there (~30 loads) for .410. Several are a single 0000 buck pellet, a handful of 00 buck with 4 pellets, and a bunch of 000 (2 or 3 pellets).

[victorfox]

PS, Nice I'll take a look. My greatest problem is the powders available all of them very fast for heavier loads in the .410. Seems the favorites in America are 296, 2400 and lil'gun none available here. We can only load the 410 with either 5/16 or 3/8oz in plastic hulls for this reason. Any heavier pressures would get too high and velocities would not be what would be expected.In the brass case i get much more troom and by seating cards and balls as a "shallow" bullet I'm expecting to get a quasi 45 Colt or 44-40 mild load. That hopefully would give about 280ft/lbs with two .40 cal wound channels. As well as being much cheaper for practice than store bought.I only buy slugs and 4 000-buckshot loads and reload the hulls with either buck or birdshot. I came with an usable load of 1 00-buckshot under 1 .40 cal. Ball at about 5/16oz using the powders we can get (same principle other friends suggested got the birshot recipe and used buckshot instead. Shot ok in my gun giving about 750fps per recipe).I want something with more thump and this combination I loaded patterns rather crazy the bigger ball hitting close to poa and the smaller one "somewhere"...The slugs I mentioned in another thread didn't work out as the guys were asking too high a fee because of the weird shapes and I didn't took the time yet to mount brenneke like stuff.All of course would have a quite low MV (~700) for a small payload... Throwing about 200-250gr of lead at this velocity would be quite another story if possible.Thanks again

[PerpetualStudent]

What is the legal situation on black powder or black powder substitutes?

I know that there are black powder (or BP substitute) in brass shotgun hull loads. Unfortunately the BPI manual doesn't have any .410 loads. But since you're talking about a quasi 45 Colt .44-40 round...well those were originally black powder loads. Black Powder might be a work around that would let you stay safer pressure wise. Obviously not as simple as just "treat the .410 hull as a .44-40 case" but it might be a starting point.

[victorfox]

PS, thanks for the tip. Indeed, while black powder firearms aren't allowed (because they can't track them -- many make their own, and I have tried with little success in the past, and keep them secret) you can walk to the next LGS and purchase 2lbs/month of true BP, about 2F, in theory. In the real world, you can buy half a truck and there's no tracking. I have some BP (about 2lbs) myself, but seldom shoot it, because of the messy goop I dislike to wipe from the revolver... :/

After studying almost all manuals I have, I concluded the powder I have is somewhere between Red Dot and W231. The listed velocities on the maker's load data shows a 4" barrel, that's why the velocities I mentioned earlier are somewhat lower than expected. Checked the Ballistics by the Inch site and results with American factory ammo (not cowboys loads me thinks) are quite similar (~750fps) for the 4" and a little faster for the 6". Since my gun is a big 6.5" if the boolits don't work to stop a threat I can always club the assailant LOL.

BTW, I got the old Ideal #38 and it has a 5/8oz .410 load with 7.0gr Red Dot. Unless I'm misinformed, it should be very dangerous. 3/8oz seems realistic, because this load closely resembles the ones we have here (5/16 over 6.6gr of 219 powder). I shoot 3/8oz over the same powder load with no problem, therefore someone probably made a typo at Lyman or the handwritten originals were ugly (my 3 look a lot like a 5...so I know what I mean).

I'm a little out of time these days, will load some shells with reduced loads then work up slowly and see how they perform and post the results.

[sthwestvictoria]

Have you slugged the chamber and bore?
the .410/45colt rifled judges are obviously a .45 bore (?.452-454) not .410, it may be useful to see what is used for a smooth bore.

This thread talks about the 45/410 judge and slugging results for the cylinder and bore:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/arch...p/t-77869.html

[waarp8nt]

I will likely get some who disagree with this as a legitimate slug load and I cannot attest to the results in specifications because it was years ago before chronographs were readily available to me cost wise. I had loaded a few .410 bore slugs using 158 grain .358 boolits in 2.5 inch Winchester AA cases with Winchester wads, an ear plug as a buffer and 296 powder. Using a H&R topper in .410 bore with only a bead sight it outshot my friends .44 magnum handgun with a scope by keeping a tighter group at 25 yards off a bench.

[PerpetualStudent]

Victor, just saw this thread over in the pistols section. Might be of interest to you: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...-4x74R-Wildcat

I would lay good money that the judge is weaker than the contender (except perhaps the raging bull good up to .454 casul). With that caveat firmly in mind it might be worth the read.

[victorfox]

I replied to The answers here earlier but they don't show up...Regarding the questions and comments:I don't own a mix only poor calipers and I've read closer to the .44 (.429) caliber than .410. To give a rough idea the balls, plastic wads etc roll in and out the barrel easily no snug fit so looks like I have a monster here. I could bet 0.02 it has a .45 barrel blank before .45 sizing and rifling if such steps exist in the making process.Waarp I believe you. The wc boolit has for itself an almost good weight toward design that would help it fly straight for some time without rifling. Thing is these are restricted here and machinists ask big money to make such obscure and custom molds (aka illegal and out of their usual)Perpetual nice thread. That's about what I want to do, but for different reasons. As I said I want to shoot around 200gr of shot/balls within the pressures of the .410/45 with the available powders, sitting the load shallow in the manner of a bullet as it was explained in the OP. this is because the listed loads for the 410 here consist in 6.6gr of a fast powder under 9grams of shot (5/16oz) giving 10000psi (published data). But the same amount of a even faster powder is used for the restricted (here) 45 colt. This means if I just pour more shot in the payload I'll be asking for trouble but if I can seat the wads and balls closer to the 45case length the pressure would be less using the same powder...I'll try to load some this w/e I've been to busy and tired to do anything yet. I'll post the results but not having a chrono or a range where I could try water jugs it'll be quite hard to the velocity... I expect something from 700 to 850fps and don't ask for more than it (6.5")... These loads would cost me less than 22LR.BTW I've read before about the 450 mongo and "mongo" here being a slang for "retard" my project could well be called the "410 retard" if everything goes wrong...