22 Magnum Center Fire feasibility?

[rbuck351]

On the initial push through at about .296 the .187 works ok. I haven't smoothed up all the little details yet but yeah , a radius on the end of the punches would probably be a good idea. When I start further sizing down I go to a smalled punch. I push them in a die until the rim hits and then punch them back out. I'm not too concerned about the case walls being a bit thicker than 22mag and the lower case volume from the base and primer as the case should be quite a bit stronger than a 22mag and I think I can just step the pressure up a bit in the TC and make up the velocity with a bit more pressure. I don't know yet and the wife has put a stop to my experiments. I retire June 1 and hope to be in Montana by July 1 where I will have a range in the front yard. What I found to be the worst part of this is figuring out how far forward of the rim to turn the case so there is enough material just forward of the web to push in without being too thick or too thin. If you go a bit too far forward the case will snap off at the head wall junction. A bit short and the pressure of trying to swage the head gets extreme. Just a bit of case head swaging in appears to be the way to go. About .125 ahead of the rim is close but may not be perfect. Any longer doesn't work but .005/.010 shorter may be better. Still experimenting. I tried annealing one but it just squished out a lump at the head wall junction.

[Chev. William]

If you mean you tried Annealing the Head, I agree it is not a good Idea as there is not enough remaining 'working ' of the area to re-harden it. Brass only "hardens" through working it to change the grain Structure to finer / harder size form Larger/ softer grain size.

My own processes for .25 Stevens size cases works the Head with the Primer cup supported with a 'punch tip' and pushing the case into the die mouth first. I also drive the swaged case back out with a punch and hammer. on NEW, unfired, PPU Hornet brass I could swage them down in one pass if I did not Stop and used a lot of force (standing up and using both arms and my body weight on the RCBS "RC" press handle). If I paused any where in the press Stroke the remaining case would "bellows deform" which made that a 'lost case' as there is no way to recover form the over stressed Brass wall afer it forms in to a 'bellows'.

Forming 5.7x28 into "parent cases for .25 Stevens size cartridges Did Not Work as a single stage swage for me. it seems the 'once fired' cases have been further work hardened and even Standing and most of my body weight would not swage the Head area, I guess going from .316" down to .276" in one pass is way too much for the FNB Brass I buy. I found that three steps were the Minimum to get it done, and possibly four steps would be better.

Going from .316" to .242" is, of Course, even more difficult. Your Idea of turning part of the head down to .242" diameter seems to avoid most of the head swage effort but as you say, how high to turn the head is a Problem to determine. I would suggest making a new .296" form die with a radius mouth tapered entry leading to the.296" cylindrical section and running the case to be formed in mouth first instead of base first. i think the radius and taper would form the Wall and upper web in longitudinal compression rather than tension, reducing the chance of forming a weak junction or possible separation. Also is your turned down head area ended with a Taper or a Square face to the 'top' of the cut?

i hope this gives you some ideas.
Best Regards,
Chev. Willaim

[rbuck351]

My initial .296 swag die is tapered from about .310 to .296. Pushing them through base first seems to use less effort but it's hard to tell for sure as I'm using a 12ton hydraulic press. My thinking is it tends to bend the brass in at the head wall junction rather than just pushing it sideways but I have no proof to support that idea. I have tried both a taper cut and a square face cut but can't see much difference. I have been using a second swag die at about .250 but I'm thinking a mid step at about .270 would help, then .250 then .242 or possibly.240/.241 then fireform. When I get back at this, I think I will section cases at each step to see better what is actually happening. I have been using STP as a swag lube and it seems to work well. Anyway, I appreciate all the ideas folks are throwing out

[leftiye]

When making .22 CCM into .22 magnum centerfire I chuck on the case mouth. First I insert a steel rod (analogous to a pin gauge that force (push) fits into the case mouth to allow gripping the case. I also use a live center in the tailstock that push fits into the primer pocket. Also I use a gauge that fits around the case (made from another case) to chuck it up in a consistent length. The .22 CCM is made by Schroeder in San Diego for about $.60 each.

[Chev. William]

When making .22 CCM into .22 magnum centerfire I chuck on the case mouth. First I insert a steel rod (analogous to a pin gauge that force (push) fits into the case mouth to allow gripping the case. I also use a live center in the tailstock that push fits into the primer pocket. Also I use a gauge that fits around the case (made from another case) to chuck it up in a consistent length. The .22 CCM is made by Schroeder in San Diego for about $.60 each.

Starting with .22CCM cases at ~$0.60 each is "WOW!". I think my budget would 'Blow it's Gaskets' if i tried working on such expensive cases.

That being said, I am curious as to what you are doing to the.22CCM case to make it into a .22Magnum center fire case.

Please Expand your explanation.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[leftiye]

All you have to change is to run the case into a die the right size up to the web (I don't remember, but the .22 mag is only a few thou - about .005" - smaller than the .22 CCM at the head), then put the pin into the case and take off whatever is still bigger than desired - mainly the head and rim down to specs. I use a setup with two micrometer dials against the carriage and specs at zero. Take the cut at crosswise zero until the lengthwise one zeroes out (this also thins the rim) then retract the crosswise to spec and cut the rim diameter. Move the carriage back to start position and load the next case. As I mentioned above, there is a 1/2 sleeve that fits over the case to position it for length in the collet chuck (and then pulls off).

I don't have a .22 CCM. But when it came time to get serious I had a .22 mag. cylinder for a Kframe and an 8 3/8" barrel for same. Put them on a model 14 and ran around in circles giggling. Same for the rifle - .22 mag contender barrel, switch the firing pin to centerfire. I had 200 of these Shroeder .22 CCM cases, so I just started modifying them.

[leftiye]

I don't think it would be too much harder to take .22 Hornet cases and do the same thing to them (use the live center to center on the primer pocket) in a series of cutting down steps to make either .22 CCM or .22 mag centerfire cases. Maybe first open the case mouths to straight(er) cases first so that a better grip could be had (with pin gauge inside case mouth).

[Chev. William]

Without swaging the Head diameter down some, or all the way to .242", i would be worried about the Web to Wall junction. Hornet Walls just above the Radius at he Web is about .013' to .014' thick.
A Hornet case is about .295" outside diameter at about the top of the web. Turning that to .242" means taking off .053" total or ~.026' per side.
the idea of turning only a portion of the head down and swaging the rest sounds a lot better.

Best Regards,
Chev. Willaim

[leftiye]

Size the junction as far as you can into the web. You should be able to run into the sizer past the start of the web.

[rbuck351]

I'm not cutting up my Hornet brass for any reason but if I was trying to use Hornet brass I would try to swag .020 or a bit more
down into the head. Swaging one before turning some of the head just in front of the rim and one after. Then section both and see which looks better. However my cheapskate nature prevents me from cutting up uncommon brass that I use for something else especially when I would have to buy more to replace it. I'll have to check to see if I have any with cracked or munched necks. That's more or less what I'm doing with the 5.7x28 brass

[Chev. William]

I'm not cutting up my Hornet brass for any reason but if I was trying to use Hornet brass I would try to swag .020 or a bit more
down into the head. Swaging one before turning some of the head just in front of the rim and one after. Then section both and see which looks better. However my cheapskate nature prevents me from cutting up uncommon brass that I use for something else especially when I would have to buy more to replace it. I'll have to check to see if I have any with cracked or munched necks. That's more or less what I'm doing with the 5.7x28 brass

My experiments with Hornet Brass have been with primarily new PPU purchased at about $32 per 100 cases, or about $0.32 Each, Lately I did buy 100 Hornady new Hornet Brass for $52, or $052 each. They came in 'pretty Shrink Wrapped "Christmas Color" packaging, I only opened one so far to look at the content.

I have Bought 5.7x28mm FNB "once fired" brass from "Monmouth Brass" for $56 and $80 a bag of 1000, or $0.08 each or less. This is 'Raw' range Pickup at indoor Ranges so it comes with expended Primers and the Polymer coating intact. Decapping, I find is a good 'sorting step for base damage as the firearms that are used sometimes raise 'burrs' on the rims that block their entry into my shell holder. I set those aside for 'deburring' and later decapping.

The Hornet resizing process I have used is a Single Stage swage of the Expanded case using a Stock Lee Carbide Ring Sizing Die in my RCBS "RC press with a "Ammomaster II" ball end lengthened Handle, which takes me standing and using both arms to apply my body weight to the Ball end and doing the Sizing in one continuous movement until the rim touches the mouth of the Die. I Think with these new Hornet cases I am going to try using a Two Step post expansion swageing process to see if the force required per stem is less without raising the Loss rate ( currently about 5% of attempted Reforming Hornet cases).

As to the 5.7x28mm reforming, I find first step is decapping , then Expanding the 'Neck and Shoulder' with a .2500" diameter punch, and then at least three Step swaging process gives 100% yield of finished "6.35x32mmSR" brass, still with most of the Polymer Coating intact.
Saves needing to lube the cases before sizing.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

I have been 'learning "QuickDesign" software and I worked up a ".22WMCF" design, the Cartridge '.pdf' file is Below:

22WMCF_Cart_cip.pdf

And the Data sheet '.pdf' file is below:

22WMCF_Data_SHT_cip.pdf

This is Based upon the CIP data for the 5.7x28mm and SAAMI info for the .22WMR. Basically "Swaging" the case diameter down and trimming the Rim diameter.

What do the Readers think of this design?

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[rbuck351]

I haven't tried that yet as I was afraid the pressure required to swag the solid head would distort the primer pocket badly. I guess I should though. Worst thing that could happen is to wreck a few more cases. I've been having fair luck making the outside dimensions of the case but when I go to drill out the inside of the case to .218 it leaves a weak spot at the case head wall junction. I'm going to try stopping the drill before it gets to that junction or not turning the head to .242 quite so far up the case basically swaging a bit more of the head.

[leftiye]

I try to size (swage) the walls up into the head past the curved section just in front of the web before turning. I think that transfers the thicker curved part into the walls. I'm with you about not sizing the whole case head. You could use a special formed expander die before turning to thin the sidewalls rather than drilling.

[Chev. William]

I haven't tried that yet as I was afraid the pressure required to swag the solid head would distort the primer pocket badly. I guess I should though. Worst thing that could happen is to wreck a few more cases. I've been having fair luck making the outside dimensions of the case but when I go to drill out the inside of the case to .218 it leaves a weak spot at the case head wall junction. I'm going to try stopping the drill before it gets to that junction or not turning the head to .242 quite so far up the case basically swaging a bit more of the head.

RCBS makes a 'Primer Pocket Swaging Kit' that I use to support the Primer pocket when I Swage case heads down to the Rim. I found that the 'Small Pocket Punch' covered with the 'Stripper Cup' and topped with a '3/16" I.D. Fender Washer' holds the Pocket diameter and depth constant while the head is squeezed down to desired size.

If I remember correctly the kits cost around $60 from Midway.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

I try to size (swage) the walls up into the head past the curved section just in front of the web before turning. I think that transfers the thicker curved part into the walls. I'm with you about not sizing the whole case head. You could use a special formed expander die before turning to thin the sidewalls rather than drilling.

leftiye,
That would be a matched die and punch combination and would be equivalent to a 'Draw Punch/Die pair' in effect. E.g.: holding the Outside Diameter constant while forcing the internal wall diameter to expand, hopefully causing the displaced metal to move to lengthen the case instead of forming a 'Ridge' in the case interior.

Best Regards,
chev. Willaim

[Michael J. Spangler]

Someone with a spare 32 or 38 cylinder could make an awesome 22 with some ideas from this article.

http://ps-2.kev009.com/ohlandl/310/3...o_MAR_1979.pdf


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[leftiye]

leftiye,
That would be a matched die and punch combination and would be equivalent to a 'Draw Punch/Die pair' in effect. E.g.: holding the Outside Diameter constant while forcing the internal wall diameter to expand, hopefully causing the displaced metal to move to lengthen the case instead of forming a 'Ridge' in the case interior.

Best Regards,
chev. Willaim

No, you force the shaped (to your desire) internal expander into the case, then turn off the extra thickness where ever it exists with a straight pass.

[rbuck351]

Lots of ideas being presented but I'm in the middle of a move from Ak to Mt and wont be doing much with this for a while. keep at it someone will come up with the best way to do this. I all ready have the rcbs primer pocket swag so I might try that as well. Good luck

[Chev. William]

Has anyone looked at the files I included in post #92 of this thread?

I am Hoping for comments and Suggestions.

Best Regards,
Chev. William