you gotta love sierra bullets . can make a big difference in many guns
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you gotta love sierra bullets . can make a big difference in many guns
The issue with turned down 22 Hornet brass isn't the hardness of the brass. The brass will take any pressure up to about 60,000 psi without flowing. The thin walls of the primer pocket will probly allow the brass to stretch way before any appreciable pressure is reached - if the chamber is loose. Stretching is another animal than flowing.
We need somebody/something to keep the government (cops and bureaucrats too) HONEST (by non government oversight).
Every "freedom" (latitude) given to government is a loophole in the rule of law. Every loophole in the rule of law is another hole in our freedom. When they even obey the law that is. Too often government seems to feel itself above the law.
We forgot to take out the trash in 2012, but 2016 was a charm! YESSS!
!. 5.7x28mm brass can be Formed down to the Top of rim by supporting the Primer pocket during the Forming step.
2. Using a nominal .012" down size (from .312 to nominal .300" the Actual downsizing was to .303" in my Personal Experiments.
I have been using 3 stage down sizing to get Case and head diameter from .312" to .276" successfully for about 600 cases so far. The rims are NOT resized in the downsizing process.
My technique is listed in threads on this Forum relating to: .32 Rimfire case replacements; .25 Stevens Case replacements/.250ALRM/.250ALS case forming; and 6.35x32mmSR/6.35x28.6mmSR.
The 6.35 series is based upon the 5.7 brass and the .250 series is based upon .22 Hornet Brass.
Yes IT IS doable IF you plan to use a Rimed or Semi rimmed final Case design, and the .22WMR IS a Rimmed Design.
You should do a Chamber Cast of your .22WMR chamber Before you work in a Case development, I will Bet your chamber is Tapered rather than Cylindrical. a Revolver Cylinder might have a parallel wall chamber; so a Revolver chamber reamer might be the "ticket" for your Development Rifle chamber but remember you may have to use a rod from the Muzzle to extract your Empties.
I note Marlin used two opposite 'extractors' of different shape to extract .22WMR cases form their Model 57M rifles the Extractor tips had two angle cuts on the Back of the Barrel for their tips to ride up on and the Rim front sat flush with the End of the Barrel and in a Pocket on the front of the Bolt body block.
The right hand extractor had flat face to engage the Rim edge; the Left extractor had a angled face to engage the Rim and released the rim when the case hit the Ejector stop.
.22WMR has a listed body diameter of .242" subtracting small Primer diameter of .175" yields a double wall of .067, or a single wall of .0335"; about 2.5 times the Wall thickness at the top of web for the 5.7 Parent Brass.
.312" body diameter of 5.7 parent brass minus .242" of nominal .22WMR case yields .070" of diameter reduction required. Assuming .009" effective reduction per step of sizing process indicates about eight Steps involved to form the Brass down to size to avoid forming loses.
I expect there will be a 'roll' of displaced Brass pushed down to the top of the Rim which will require turning to remove.
The interior of the Case will also contract and I expect the Wall will end up thicker than .013" at the Web. And yes you will need to re-drill the flash holes as they Will contract in the forming process.
I re-drill Flash holes to about .078" (5/64" drill) on my Reformed cases.
Best Regards,
Chev. William
Last edited by Chev. William; 04-23-2016 at 12:11 PM.
How about sizing the case to the front of the head (web), and then turning the head down so as to not deform the primer pockets, and to not overharden the heads.
We need somebody/something to keep the government (cops and bureaucrats too) HONEST (by non government oversight).
Every "freedom" (latitude) given to government is a loophole in the rule of law. Every loophole in the rule of law is another hole in our freedom. When they even obey the law that is. Too often government seems to feel itself above the law.
We forgot to take out the trash in 2012, but 2016 was a charm! YESSS!
Thanks for that! Due to a rather nasty case of flu the past couple of weeks I have not been able to do as much as I had planned and now because of a scheduled transmission rebuild project on an antique tractor that we finally got parts for I am going to have to postpone this project for a couple of weeks, as the old saying goes I just have too many irons in the fire right now.Originally Posted by Chev. William
What I found with the 5.7 cases pretty much agrees with what you are saying and I too think they can be made to work, looking at the sectioned cases I experimented with I think they really do need some material removed inside in the web area in order to increase capacity. I sectioned an unmodified case first to determine how far down I should size it to just start rolling the web in at the top so after turning the area there would not be so thin as to be weak nor so thick as to waste powder space, my next step when I get back to this project is going to be to compare some Hornet cases to see if they can be formed with less time and effort, at this point I suspect they can. Have you tried Hornet cases? Would the 5.7 cases be better and worth the (suspected?) extra effort? I am thinking that the Hornet might not, or might also, require material to be removed inside around the web area for powder capacity????
In any case thanks again you have both confirmed some things I suspected and verified a few things I had tried, I am anxious to get this tractor project out of the way (and out of my shop!) so I can continue with this case development.
Statistics show that criminals commit fewer crimes after they have been shot
"How about sizing the case to the front of the head (web), and then turning the head down so as to not deform the primer pockets, and to not overharden the heads."
That MIGHT work IF, and only IF, you do not form a "Knuckle" in the Wall to Web junction.
If you do form the "Knuckle", then machine the Base you will have an automatic weak spot where the Wall and Web join, leading to premature Case head Separations.
It would be better to have a Overly Strong (work hardened) head that does not have to expand to fill a oversize Chamber than a Case head Separation generating Weak spot so the Case head can Expand in an 'over size' Chamber.
The First 5.7 case I experimented with, I tried single step Forming from .312" diameter to .276" diameter; the Case Failed on First Inspection as it had a "Knuckle" both inside and outside and the inside 'knuckle' was feel-able with a Bent Paper clip like is used to inspect for case wall Thinning in cases subject to 'stretching' when fired.
Best Regards,
Chev. William
Last edited by Chev. William; 02-23-2016 at 12:10 PM.
Yes i have formed .276" diameter x 1.380" long cases from .22 Hornet cases using a single step sizing but it takes a Lot of "effort": I have to stand up and lean with BOTH arms on the Handle of my RCBS "RC" press to force the Hornet into the Lee Carbide .25ACP sizing die. Any Pause in the Forming Stroke has resulted in a 'ruined' case as the Wall will Fail by Bellows Deformation if you stop and restart the Forming Pass.
As is, My "Yield of Hornet to .250ALRx 'parent cases' is about 95 percent over 600 cases formed.
at the same time, my yield of 5.7 to 6.35x32 'parent cases' is 100 percent over 800 cases formed.
My Raw Case costs are:
For New PPU .22 Hornet, about $32.00 per Hundred.
For Once fired 5.7x28mm, about $80.00 per Thousand.
My tooling costs are already 'amortized' as i only buy tools when I have 'Disposable income" over My Living Expenses as I am a Retired (mostly) 73 year old Disabled Veteran who is still listed with my Union dispatcher for Work Calls; of which I had 11 days of work in 2015, and 3 days in 2014.
Currently I am working on a Replacement Truck for one That was Declared 'Totaled' by my Insurance Carrier (due to a 6 vehicle Freeway accident on December 5th Last year).
Best Regards,
Chev. William
The easiest source of Cartridge and Chamber Dimensions seems to be the CIP Site at "http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/uploads/tdcc/tab-v/22-win-mag-rf-en.pdf" as SAAMI seems to require Internet Explorer To access Their Documents and I don't use it often (I have An old computer with MS Windows XP Pro running, Still).
The CIP Drawing Says the Minimum Chamber is .2429+" diameter so it could get much larger I expect.
Work Hardening the Area of the Primer pocket does Increase the Strength but does also reduce the Elastic Deformation limit of the Hardened Brass. Seems like a 'Tight Chamber Would be Preferred for this .22WMR Center fire experiment.
The Rim to Wall Junction I expect should be a Radius like is done with the RF Rim so as to not Thin the Primer Pocket Wall from a Extractor clearance Groove Undercut.
Additionally, the Primer pocket Wall of .0335" is Greater than the .22WMR Case Wall Thickness (about .015") so would be Stronger in tension, for extracting, than the RF case.
This is an Intriguing Project But I am Well Involved with my own 6.35 and.250 projects at this time so I will not be doing any physical experiments toward the proposed .22WMR Center Fire Project Development at this time.
Best Regards,
Chev. William
Last edited by Chev. William; 04-23-2016 at 12:19 PM. Reason: added some Clarifing words.
Well as long as the 6 chambers, or however many are involved (might only be one) the brass can be machined to fit nicely.
Bill
Both ends WHAT a player
On mine the cases go into the chambers with some pushing required. I suscpect that this might define a minimum chamber, and help in supporting the case head. As mentioned, I believe that plastic deformation limits are what is important as the primer pocket walls are so thin that they will stretch if allowed to.
We need somebody/something to keep the government (cops and bureaucrats too) HONEST (by non government oversight).
Every "freedom" (latitude) given to government is a loophole in the rule of law. Every loophole in the rule of law is another hole in our freedom. When they even obey the law that is. Too often government seems to feel itself above the law.
We forgot to take out the trash in 2012, but 2016 was a charm! YESSS!
I have made a few center fire 22mag cases from 5.7x28. I start by turning the rim to .295 then turn the section from the front of the rim to .125 forward of the rim down to .242. Then I push it base first through a .296 die I made. Then push it front first into progressively smaller dies to where it leaves a bit of a lump just forward of the .242 solid base with the front of the case now .242 or a bit smaller. Then machine the lump off to .242. Now I trim the case in the lathe to 1.055 length then drill the inside of the neck to .221 to a depth I want the boolit seated. Now I prime and load the case with 1.2grs of BE and force a hard .225 48gr boolit in the neck which bulges the neck. I finish the bulge off to .242 and fire form. Now drilling out the inside of the case with a #5 drill will leave walls a bit thicker than 22mag but still give plenty of room for powder. Not having loading dies, I just reprime with punches and thumb push a boolit to the step left inside the neck. I haven't worked up a load yet but have gone as high as 1.7grs of BE which pushes the 48gr boolit through 3" of semi dry Birch. I'm now going to make a batch of cases instead of taking a half hour to make one case because of all the tool switching and experimenting. Oh, I have ruined a couple dozen cases trying to get this to work. Still have to test for accuracy and velocity but it does work and there are lots of 5.7x28 cases left at the range where I shoot.
Just get a 22 Hornet.
This is not what you want but I think it's cool anyway. http://www.cartridgecollector.net/22...le-centre-fire . I'm having crazy ideas...
Do western scrounger have this? http://www.cartridgecollector.net/22...-22-extra-long
Got a Hornet and 2 K Hornets already. Making 22centerfire mags gives you a very efficient CF 22 that is interchangeable with 22mag in a TC and has a much stronger case. Besides, tinkering with this kind of thing is fun. If doing this was business related it would make no sense at all. As a hobby, I get a great deal of pleasure putzing on my lathe making tools and working out ways to test ideas. I probably have 30 hrs in making tools and trying different things to make a simple straight wall case.
To top it off, I don't have an actual barrel for the TC in 22mag. I took a 22mag barrel I had and turned it to a barrel insert for a 44mag barrel I have for the TC. I like unique stuff and usually you have to make things yourself to get truly unique things.
Oldred hope your transmission project is going well,I'm very interested in this 22mag CF project
I to shoot the TC in most 22 calibers,but we have a number of 22Magnums and want to produce reloadable ammo with out modifying the rifle. I've spent most of my free time in the last 30 years looking for a fix for the 25Stevens Rimfire to. you would think a major ammo Mfg would pick up these ideas for center fire,to replace rimfire ammo. There is a great deal of guns that need replacement ammo.Please keep the wheels turning on this idea.
Bob
Last edited by SSGOldfart; 04-23-2016 at 11:48 AM. Reason: fat fingers small keyboard
I started out with nothing and I still have most of it left.
Paralyzed Veterans of America
Looking for a Hensly &Gibbs #258 any thing from a two cavity to a 10cavityI found a new one from a member here
Comments added in Bold Typeface in line in the Quoted Text.
A Very good summary of your successful experimental process. Please Expand it to answer the Questions I included.
Best Regards,
Chev. William
Anyone else wants pics too?
I haven't found a shell holder that fit the new case although the 5.7 would probably work for resizing. I only have about .001 neck clearance to chamber on the loaded round so resizing doesn't appear to be needed. for a punch I'm using a pin punch .187 from auto zone to push them base first for the first step down. after that they are pushed neck first into progressive smaller dies to the rim, then punched back out.
My three jaw chuck has grooves cut into the jaws at the part that touches the work about every 1/4". With the rim at one of the grooves the rim doesn't touch the jaw.
Although this probably isn't the best way to thin the neck, they are coming out plus or minus about .001 at about .011 neck thickness. I tried the #2 and ended up screwing up several cases. Not sure why but I think the drill needs sharpened differently.
I only had 6 or 7 cases to play with so went to the public range and found a couple hundred so now I'm not afraid to try anything I can think of. I'm now working on streamlining the process and making better dies.
RE: Drill Bit and Sharpening; Yes, a Drill Bit sharpened for Steel will dig in and grab Brass/Copper.
The exact geometry is probably available in a copy of "Machinery Handbook", the "bible of Machinists" for many Decades.
My Late Wife "Cleaned up" my home office and I have not found where She stored my copies (I had several different editions from near the beginning though about the !980's).
Some data has Changed over They ears, especially information on Pre-Standardized Screw and Bolt thread dimensions.
RE: Pin Punch; the .187 pin punch I would think would need a radius on the 'working 'end to prevent "gouging' the inside Web to Wall fillet and possibly some thinning to clear th eReducing diameter of the lower Wall as the outside is swaged down. I found in my Swaging down to .276, the Pin Punch Tip had to be tapered to around .175" diameter at the tip and the tip end edge made in a radius so it would not Jam in the Case.
Best Regards,
Chev. William
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