22 Magnum Center Fire feasibility?

[rbuck351]

I think that is what we are all trying to do with the main problem being swaging the body of a 5.7x28 down far enough to finish the outside to .242 without breaking the case off at the case head/wall junction. At least that's been my biggest problem and although I have a few more ideas to try my move from AK to MT is taking all my time. I'm forced to put this on a back burner for a while.

[Chev. William]

Here is a photo illustrating my tooling to swage 5.7x28mm down to .276" body diameter all the way to the rim.


a photo of my Press and the RCBS Primer pocket Punch, stripper cup and the fender washer i use.


Obviously taking the resized cases from .276" body diameter down to .242" body diameter will need more Stages of swaging, OR much more Powerful and Faster Swaging Press and punch/die sets, to get the parent case to the desired diameter with acceptable yield of finished cases.

My opinion presently is that taking the head down by swaging is going to make the head harder and therefore Stronger to resist primer pocket 'stretch' in firing. The rim, not being subjected to the same amount of work hardening, should stay 'springy' instead of 'brittle' in the bending load of extraction.

Machining the Base to reduce the amount of swaging may also work but it is something I have no experience with.

Again, my opinion is that the Primer Pocket Must Be supported in any Head Swaging operations.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

Added 20180319:

Left to Right: .25ACP @.905" OAL; .25ALR @1.293" OAL; .25 Magnum Auto. @.1.366" OAL; .25ALS @ 1.407" OAL. All With .250" sized Hornady #2510 60 grain Jacketed Soft Flat Point Bullet.
Note: .25ACP Case Length = .612"; .25ALR Case Length = .960"; .25 Magnum Auto. Case Length = 1.055"; .25ALS Case Length = 1.125".
Note: .25ACP rim diameter is .304" adn 5.7x28mm parent rime diameter is .307".
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

The thread 'Bullshop .22CCM' discussed the Cooper Centerfire Magnum .224" bullet diameter cartridge which is similar to this discussion. The latest Post on that thread includes a "URL" for a man in San Deago that makes the Cases from .22 Hornet brass in supposedly 14 steps.

http://www.custombrassandbullets.com/scbu.html

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Buffalo Arms, Inc. is now selling empty .22CCM cases for reloading use.

Much easier to use than Swaging down 5.7x28mm to the same diameters, but not cheap to buy.
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

My Order of 20 each 22CCM cases (from Buffalo Arms) arrived and they match the Drawing dimensions and have 'Hornady .22 Hornet' residual Head Stamps (about 1/3 removed when the rim diameter was turned down).
Very well done from appearances.
Chev. William

[NoZombies]

My Order of 20 each 22CCM cases (from Buffalo Arms) arrived and they match the Drawing dimensions and have 'Hornady .22 Hornet' residual Head Stamps (about 1/3 removed when the rim diameter was turned down).
Very well done from appearances.
Chev. William

As I mentioned in the thread about .22 CCM, there are two other makers who offer the brass that I know of; Reed's ammo (also a member here BTW) and Schroeder. They both charge considerable less for their 22 CCM brass than does buffalo arms.

I have nothing against buffalo arms, I just can't see paying 3-5X as much for the same brass (they probably buy from Schroeder)

[Chev. William]

I have not found .22CCM on 'Reeds' Website, perhaps I just missed them.
I have had no luck finding contact info for Schroeder in the past.

Would you please repost the contact info or web addresses for both?

[NoZombies]

I have not found .22CCM on 'Reeds' Website, perhaps I just missed them.
I have had no luck finding contact info for Schroeder in the past.

Would you please repost the contact info or web addresses for both?

Sure thing, Here's Reed's:
https://shop.reedsammo.com/22-Cooper...22CCMBrass.htm

And I don't think Schroeder has a website, but his phone # is 619-423-3523

[deltaenterprizes]

There is also a round called .22 Velo Dog that is just about what you are looking for but I think it is obsolete.

Tim

I have been looking for some Velodog brass and have not found any!

[Chev. William]

I have been looking for some Velodog brass and have not found any!

Try searching European ammo makers European sites as it is not normally Exported to the USA. i think Fiocchi or S&B make a run of it occasionally.
CIP 5,75 Velo dog Pistol cartridge Standard drawing:
http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation...l-en-page3.pdf

Chev. William

[reed1911]

We are working on the velodog....

[rbuck351]

I finally got back to this project and have managed to make a few cases from 5.7x28 that work. I'm still not sure it's worth the effort but it can be done. I start by turning the case at a 3 degree angle from the shoulder to the rim. This closely follows the taper of the inner side of the case wall and leaves the case head at about .252. I then size the case body in ten separate steps with step 3 having a 5 degree taper on the bottom which swages the body and just a bit of the head. The next several steps stop just at the body head junction until the body dia is .244 which fits my chamber snugly. Back in the lathe to turn the head to .244 and trim to length. Then size the neck inside to .223 with an M die and back in the lathe to neck turn to .244. I do the sizing on a press and a punch to knock the cases out of the dies to keep from breaking the rim off when removing cases from the dies. I've destroyed about 50 cases trying to make this work and I still haven't fired them enough to know how long they will last nor figured out a max load.

[Chev. William]

I finally got back to this project and have managed to make a few cases from 5.7x28 that work. I'm still not sure it's worth the effort but it can be done. I start by turning the case at a 3 degree angle from the shoulder to the rim. This closely follows the taper of the inner side of the case wall and leaves the case head at about .252. I then size the case body in ten separate steps with step 3 having a 5 degree taper on the bottom which swages the body and just a bit of the head. The next several steps stop just at the body head junction until the body dia is .244 which fits my chamber snugly. Back in the lathe to turn the head to .244 and trim to length. Then size the neck inside to .223 with an M die and back in the lathe to neck turn to .244. I do the sizing on a press and a punch to knock the cases out of the dies to keep from breaking the rim off when removing cases from the dies. I've destroyed about 50 cases trying to make this work and I still haven't fired them enough to know how long they will last nor figured out a max load.

Rbuck351,
Your description of your process to get from .314" body down to .244" body diameters seems to indicate about .007" reduction average per stage of Swaging which is about what I found for my end steps of Process.
As this is an Average, I presume the early Steps were for larger reductions and the last steps had smaller reduction per swaging step.

You don't mention the primer pocket nor the flash hole adjustments that I find useful after Swaging. Do you support the Primer pocket during your swaging steps? What size Flash Hole do you end with?

As to your case forming failures, it would seem development of process does result in high losses as my own were high initially, over 35 percent of my first 100 case lot of reforming .22 Hornet brass in one stage swaging. This has Dropped to about 2 percent with multiple step step of .22 Hornet and about ! percent of 5.7x28 cases.

I am hoping my two new Lee Precision "oversize" (for Maximum SAAMI Case diameter) .25ACP Carbide Ring Sizing dies will reduce the losses some more; however, due to the 'Inclement Weather' of late here I have not been able to work at my outside reloading 'Shop' to try the new dies out.

My reloading 'Shop' is on my back patio with a Northeasterly Exposure to wind and Weather. Normally it is comfortable in the Typical Southern California weather but this Cold Rain is NOT the same.

Chev. William

[rbuck351]

My last post was from memory which I should never do. I'm not swaging the bottom .190 head part of the case. Just taper swaging from about .190 to .220 from the bottom of the case and straight sizing forward of that. Yea, the first sizing steps are larger and get progressively smaller. Most of the case head is machined off in step 1 with a 3 degree cut that takes off nothing right at the shoulder and cuts down to about .256 at the rim. This closely follows the inside taper of the body leaving brass thick enough just forward of the head to size the body and swage just a bit of the head. Sizing steps as follows 1. .304 2. .284 3. .274 4. .263 5. .259 6. .251 7. .248 Next the case is machined to .243 front to back. I was trying to size this step but machining works better. Swaging the case head in happens in die 5 where I have taper reamed one end. For size steps 5,6 and 7 I added a couple of washers around the case head (total thickness .162) to keep the case from being pushed into the die any farther. M die to .223 and trim to length. Then load the case. Then back in the lathe and a light filing on the neck until it will easily slide in the chamber. I made 6 cases on the last run one of which had some wrinkles in the case and split when fired. No idea why the one wrinkled. I'll probably make a total of 30 or 40 cases, work up a load and then tuck it away where I won't find it for a while.

[Chev. William]

My Experience with Swaging either .22 hornet or 5.7x28 cases down to .276"-.278" body diameter using as the final Step a Lee Precision Carbide ring .25ACP Sizing die with the Decapping pin and collet removed results in a 'parent' case that has the main body at .25ACP diameters but the bottom roughly .300" tapers from that .276"-.278" diameter up to .280"-.281" diameter just above the extractor clearance cut at the top of the rim. I found this is due to the builtin taper Lee puts in the carbide ring to ease sizing efforts.

I have an old Hollywood engineering .25ACP steel sizing die with less length of mouth taper I can use to swage the taper off the case base, bringing the base to about .279" body diameter. I don't use it often as I only have the one, and 'there are no more' as Hollywood engineering is gone forever.

Chev. William

ADDED 20190420: I now have a home made Die that removes the Taper via a shearing process through use of a Type "P" .277" Inside Diameter Hardened (Rc61) Alloy Steel Drill Bushing with the rounded end inside a Machined Blank PT&G Die body and the Non-radiused end used as the mouth of the die.
I have now tested this home made die on 50 swage formed 5.7x28mm cases with 100 percent yield of parent cases for my 'wildcat' designs.

Chev. William

[Chev. William]

I think that is what we are all trying to do with the main problem being swaging the body of a 5.7x28 down far enough to finish the outside to .242 without breaking the case off at the case head/wall junction. At least that's been my biggest problem and although I have a few more ideas to try my move from AK to MT is taking all my time. I'm forced to put this on a back burner for a while.

There are at Least Three "Inside Lube" .22 RF case Diameters PLUS the one for "Outside Lubed" heeled bullets.
In decreasing diameters they are .250", .245", and .242"; so perhaps it is possible to do all three as steps in the process.

I have found that 5.7x28mm cases grow in length as their diameter is Reduced by Swaging and expect that the .25ACP case would also increase in length as its Diameter is swaged down.

Does a "Magnum" version actually Need to be longer than the 'non-magnum' version of the same cartridge? Especially since we are discussing a Center Fire Magnum version to replace a Magnum Rim Fire version?

Yes, it is convenient to use the Same case length to allow use of the same Chamber for the new cartridge and just change the Ignition Style.
But is that a Requirement?

Chev. William