22 Magnum Center Fire feasibility?

[oldred]

Ok the other thread on the 22 Mag/218 Bee had strayed so far off the original topic I thought it best to just pick up where it left off with a new thread. While the original discussion led to me deciding the 22 Mag/218 Bee conversion was not a good idea it did bring up first the subject of the 22CCM and then the possibility of a true 22 Magnum centerfire. This intrigued me to the point that I actually lathe turned and tested a couple of cases for such a round. While the two I made were unsuitable for use because of the wrong brass alloy and proved to be rather brittle (I only had free machining 360 alloy while C260 is used for cartridge cases) I did discover it was not as hard to do or time consuming as I would have thought. The problem at the moment is that the very properties that make the 260 alloy usable for cartridge cases (it's even known in the industry as "cartridge brass") also make it very unforgiving as a machinable alloy. I have been in touch with a long time friend, who is a retired welding/structural engineer from a large mining machinery company, concerning this problem and he has made the suggestion of a kind of hybrid method of doing this that could possibly avoid the problems encountered when attempting to machine this alloy to the required specs. He is fairly confident it will work ok but admittedly he is skeptical as to if it can be done at a reasonable cost per piece, I suppose we simply won't know unless we try!

Anyway this, to me, is very interesting in that it would provide a reloadable 22 Magnum round of slightly reduced performance (due to reduced case capacity because of the primer) but still better than a 22 LR. Unlike the unique 22CCM this round, if it can be done, would work in a standard unmodified 22 Mag chamber and would require only that a firearm be capable of dual RF/CF (Contender?) or being easily converted to CF, the chamber would not be changed. I think this is an interesting concept and, to me anyway, seems like it would be much more appealing than the 22CCM which would render the converted firearm unsuitable for 22 Magnum use after conversion.

[Cap'n Morgan]

Why not try stainless steel? With the thin walls & and pressure of a 22WMR it should seal alright and would probably last forever.

[oldred]

Why not try stainless steel? With the thin walls & and pressure of a 22WMR it should seal alright and would probably last forever.

We (my engineer friend and I) actually discussed using stainless since I have some 3/8" 304 alloy hex bar but he doesn't think it is likely to work very well and probably would crack unless the walls were left fairly thick which would cut into the already rather meager powder capacity, plus it could present resizing problems. Still I can't positively rule it out but unless the hybrid process to form the cartridge brass doesn't work out I probably won't try any other type of material. Just checking around today online it looks as if cartridge brass is readily available and would be quite economical if it could be drawn the normal way but turning to shape, even partially like we discussed is going to produce a lot of waste driving up the cost per piece, still not all that bad however.

[dtknowles]

I think that FN 5.7 brass could be formed and trimmed to what you need. It would take a heavy anneal and the right dies and press. I think the rim is about right you would have to put a big squeeze on the body and head.

Tim

[dtknowles]

There is also a round called .22 Velo Dog that is just about what you are looking for but I think it is obsolete.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Here are a couple links with a picture and story.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velo-d..._-_FMJ_-_2.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velo-dog

Tim

[oldred]

Yep, we discussed the Velo-Dog in the other thread and it's apparently identical to the 22CCM, the CCM is obviously loaded heavier and possibly has a stronger case but basically the same dimensions as the Velo-Dog. However neither will work in a 22 Mag chamber which is the goal here.

That FN 5.7 looks to be worth investigating and just might be the answer, one could be re-formed in a proper die with enough pressure and then sectioned to see what the inside of the case near the head forms to. It most likely would have a lot of excess brass taking up space where it gets squeezed around the head but this could probably be reamed out with a purpose made reamer if necessary, definitely worth consideration so thanks for pointing that one out!

[Rustyleee]

Here is a web page from a friend of mine that built this project. A 5MM rimfire converted to a centerfire.
http://downontherange.com/pb/wp_30e5..._30e5debf.html

There is also a link to another article at the bottom of the page but the link appears to be broken . It's not a .22 but a .20.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Here is what I posted in that other thread:

"You have to consider how desirable a rifle for an unusual cartridge may be to others. You have built your rifle, and may have no thought of selling it. But you wouldn't like to think of it being left in a corner to rust a couple of generations from now, because it is for no available ammunition or loading equipment.

We don't know why the .22CCM was made larger in diameter than the WRM, but I don't think it was likely to be the existence, or former existence, of the Velo Dog. One possibility was that there were Magnum firearms convertible simply by a change or block, which were unsuitable for the higher pressures to which some might load the CCM. It may also have been that it was considered advisable to have a little more thickness of metal around the primer pocket.

I've mentioned this here before, but I have a large quantity of Winchester Super-X headstamped rimfire cases an inch in length, of standard LR diameter but never loaded, which I bought on eBay for making bullet jackets. The only thing I know of that they might have been meant for is shotshells. Although they thicken slightly as you approach the rim, I think a large pistol primer could be rammed all the way down, and the anvil held in place with a superglued or crimped diaphragm made with another one."

It isn't Magnum diameter, and the firing-pin would have to dent the primer through the case head. But many rifles give a stronger firing-pin blow than a pistol. You would need a heel bullet unless you adapted it to a .20 barrel, but one for the .297/.230 is available from http://www.castbulletengineering.com...fle/22-calibre in Australia.

[oldred]

Here is what I posted in that other thread:

"You have to consider how desirable a rifle for an unusual cartridge may be to others. You have built your rifle, and may have no thought of selling it. But you wouldn't like to think of it being left in a corner to rust a couple of generations from now, because it is for no available ammunition or loading equipment.

We don't know why the .22CCM was made larger in diameter than the WRM, but I don't think it was likely to be the existence, or former existence, of the Velo Dog. One possibility was that there were Magnum firearms convertible simply by a change or block, which were unsuitable for the higher pressures to which some might load the CCM. It may also have been that it was considered advisable to have a little more thickness of metal around the primer pocket.

I've mentioned this here before, but I have a large quantity of Winchester Super-X headstamped rimfire cases an inch in length, of standard LR diameter but never loaded, which I bought on eBay for making bullet jackets. The only thing I know of that they might have been meant for is shotshells. Although they thicken slightly as you approach the rim, I think a large pistol primer could be rammed all the way down, and the anvil held in place with a superglued or crimped diaphragm made with another one."

It isn't Magnum diameter, and the firing-pin would have to dent the primer through the case head. But many rifles give a stronger firing-pin blow than a pistol. You would need a heel bullet unless you adapted it to a .20 barrel, but one for the .297/.230 is available from http://www.castbulletengineering.com...fle/22-calibre in Australia.

Well the idea here would be to simply create an otherwise standard 22 Magnum except for having a conventional reloadable center fire primer, the goal would be to use a standard center fire rifle or pistol with no modification except for center fire capability. The internal primer is an interesting idea and of course a similar system was used quite a lot back in the BP days, early 45/70 comes to mind, and could likely work as you described, however it would take up a lot of space in the case and would be much more difficult to reload even if the spent primer could somehow be removed.

[oldred]

I have been researching that 5.7x28 round and it looks as if it may be a viable alternative to making from scratch, not nearly as simple as swaging it down to size but it still looks to be doable. The main problem is the fact that the solid, or at least MUCH heavier portion of the head must be reformed and this presents some problems, I found this cut-away on the 'net so the problem becomes a bit clearer when looking at this,




The main problem is the web portion will be completely distorted squeezing the flash hole completely closed (and then some!) but the primer pocket could be supported by a proper made head support. Obviously in order to prevent irreparable damage the case head would need to be annealed first but (hopefully) the forming process would work harden it thus returning it to a usable condition, the case walls may or may not present a problem in this regard. Solving the cases forming problems would be the first hurdle and I envision it like this, anneal the cases so that the brass can freely form without damage, perform the sizing operation while supporting the priming pocket thereby maintaining it's shape but allowing all material above that point to assume whatever shape the forming operation results in. The flash hole could then be re-drilled and a purpose made reamer could take out whatever material necessary to return the web area to a normal shape.

Sounds simple enough BUT?

Forming dies would be easy enough to make as would the holder/primer pocket support, the reamer could be made to shape the web area to about any shape desired but the real question would be will all that brass move around the way we need it to? I think it's worth a try so if I can locate a few empty cases I will make the dies and give it a try, who knows maybe it will actually work!

[dtknowles]

If you send my a postage paid self addressed envelope I will send you some 5.7 brass. PM me for my address and case count and weight.

Tim

[B R Shooter]

A 221 Fireball is a dandy little fellow, you can load it down to 22mag performance if you wish. Brass is available.

[oldred]

A 221 Fireball is a dandy little fellow, you can load it down to 22mag performance if you wish. Brass is available.

I agree that it is indeed a neat little round but again the goal here is try and come up with a reloadable round for the 22 Mag requiring minimal conversion (or no conversion in some such as the Contender) to the firearm, at least nothing that couldn't be reversed with minimal effort.

[oldred]

If you send my a postage paid self addressed envelope I will send you some 5.7 brass. PM me for my address and case count and weight.

Tim

Thank you I will get in touch with you in a couple of days or so, a few cases would be a big help! It shouldn't require many at all, some would have to be sectioned to determine how the brass reacted to the sizing process but most should be usable for testing if this works out ok.

[dtknowles]

Thank you I will get in touch with you in a couple of days or so, a few cases would be a big help! It shouldn't require many at all, some would have to be sectioned to determine how the brass reacted to the sizing process but most should be usable for testing if this works out ok.

Grumpa might have clues about sizing. I would not size all the way to the head. I would leave that last bit unsized and turn them down on the lathe.

Tim

[oldred]

Grumpa might have clues about sizing. I would not size all the way to the head. I would leave that last bit unsized and turn them down on the lathe.

Tim

Yeah that's a concern for sure, I had already considered doing just that for two reasons, any attempt to size all the way to the rim would first create a severe stress area right at the rim which could lead to cracks plus it would be difficult to keep the rim from distorting. Looking at that diagram it might be a bit tricky but I think a forming die with a slight flare at the bottom could be used to form the upper part while just gently rolling in the lower section. The excess on the outside could then be turned off leaving the inside about right and possibly even eliminating the reaming step. It will take some experimentation but should make for an interesting project, very little to lose except the time involved and after all it is just a hobby!

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Yeah that's a concern for sure, I had already considered doing just that for two reasons, any attempt to size all the way to the rim would first create a severe stress area right at the rim which could lead to cracks plus it would be difficult to keep the rim from distorting. Looking at that diagram it might be a bit tricky but I think a forming die with a slight flare at the bottom could be used to form the upper part while just gently rolling in the lower section. The excess on the outside could then be turned off leaving the inside about right and possibly even eliminating the reaming step. It will take some experimentation but should make for an interesting project, very little to lose except the time involved and after all it is just a hobby!

Yes, if you use this case, or the marginally smaller Hornet, I think sizing just past the powder chamber and turning down the rest is the best way to do it. I believe you would need some kind of holding device with a spigot to keep the primer pocket from contracting, or a device to swage it back again after it had done so.

There is a potential problem though. The FN P90 is a weapon that just might become effectively limited to institutional purchasers, like the Striker shotgun, and institutions rarely reload. It isn't impossible that this brass might disappear from the market, but the Hornet will be there as long as there are guns.

[dtknowles]

The problem with he Hornet brass is the rim is so much bigger but I guess if the brass is going to be turned anyway that would not matter.

Tim

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The problem with he Hornet brass is the rim is so much bigger but I guess if the brass is going to be turned anyway that would not matter.

Tim

That is what I thought. If you don't have a lathe, a useful tool for turning down the rim and the solid head is a well sharpened rebate plane like this:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3115133382...84.m1436.l2649

I wouldn't turn anything on a hand-held electric drill, as some advise you can. The armature is never perfectly balanced, and that makes for vibration. If you can make an arbor for a slower rotating electric screwdriver, it should be fine.

The Hornet rim would have to be thinned as well.One way of doing it would be to make a thin-rimmed dummy chamber in a piece of steel, and squash it thinner in a press or engineering vice. The primer pocket could be deepened with a punch to compensate.