What powder for 158gr SWC and 38spl snubnose?

[35remington]

Hint: Power Pistol. If Quickload says otherwise Quickload is wrong. Several other powders will as well.

[David2011]

bullseye has been THE POWDER for 38 specials since before I was born in the 50s and for good reason.

Bullseye, 231, and HS-6.

Agreed. I've found 231 to be pretty clean burning in most cartridges if that's a factor. Bullseye is my go to for light to medium .38 loads since 1981.

I've been using my stash of Clays, but we all know that ship has sailed.

Seems to be available sporadically.

David

[Bonz]

Hint: Power Pistol. If Quickload says otherwise Quickload is wrong. Several other powders will as well.

Quickload say 527fps with 158 grain Lead bullet and 6 grains of PowerPistol (+P Load) out of a 1 7/8" barrel

[35remington]

Quickload is dead wrong. 5.4 grains gets 830 from that barrel length and is not Plus P.

Actual results are far better science than predictions. The mistake is to get overly bemused with prediction and mistake it for actual results, which has the superior science.

Quickload frequently fails with pistol loads. Really....if Plus P pressures are being generated does it make sense that only 527 fps would be obtained with a powder that approximates Herco?

Think about it.

[Treeman]

Bonz, I am not a Quickload user....but I suspect that your problem may be the barrel length entered. When we talk about any barrel other than a revolver we generally measure from breechface to muzzle.....but with revolvers the barrel is the barrel exclusive of the cylinder length. Add the cylinder and your 1 7/8 barrel is suddenly more like a 3.4 inch barrel. In any case the chrony does not agree with the conclusion QL generated.

[Hick]

I like 700X-- based on the highly scientific basis that I have lots of it. Hornady says 3.7 grains under a 158 gr lead SWC will get you about 800 fps

[ell198679]

Probably a silly question. Do you have to use +p brass for most of these loads. What's a good OAL length for LEE 158-358 swc.

[tazman]

Probably a silly question. Do you have to use +p brass for most of these loads. What's a good OAL length for LEE 158-358 swc.

No, you don't need to use +P brass. As to the Lee boolit, Crimp it in the crimp groove and shoot it. The OAL comes out fine that way.

[ell198679]

thanks I've been reloading the 105 gr version for a while. Figured it be very similar.

[JBinMN]

I have used Red Dot pushing a TL358 -158 SWC in the missus LCR 357. I have been doing testing for her with "reduced loads" for 38Spec. & 357Mag. I have chrono data for it using a 357Mag case from 3.7gr to 4.1 gr. when I was looking for some milder loads for her to shoot, even though she prefers 38Sp within the range of 2.5 -2.9gr. same boolit. The data I gathered at that time for the 4.0gr Red Dot load in a 357mag case is where the velocities began to "stay" in the 725+fps. I will share this data here just for your consideration when trying to decide what loads might be applicable for your 38Spec. in this topic. It is YOUR responsibility if you try to duplicate this data.:

Set: 13
Created: 16/11/17 16:19
Description: 357M TL358-158gr SWC 4.0gr Red Dot
Notes 1: Ruger LCR snubnose Win. SPM primers
Notes 2: *I* cartridges
Distance to Chrono(FT): 10.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight(gr): 158.00
Temp: 31 °F
BP: 30.10 inHg
Altitude: 0.00
# FPS FT-LBS PF
6 767 206.43 121.19
5 775 210.75 122.45
4 763 204.28 120.55
3 795 221.77 125.61
2 800 224.57 126.40
1 781 214.03 123.40
Average: 780.2 FPS
SD: 14.9 FPS
Min: 763 FPS
Max: 800 FPS
Spread: 37 FPS
Shot/sec: 0.1
True MV: 781 FPS
Group Size (in): 0.00

In the Lyman manual #49 & #50 and the Cast Bullet manual they all list the Max. load for 38Spec using a 160gr. cast boolit is 3.6 gr. Red Dot. The +P loads Max. in those same manuals are at 4.1gr Red Dot with that same boolit. If one uses that data for that 160gr. boolit with with a 158gr. boolit, In My Opinion , one should be safe to use a 4.0gr. Red Dot load with a 38Special LCR(or X) and consider it within those Lyman Manuals specifications for that +P 160gr. load but substituting a 158gr. boolit.

Once again, I will say that it is YOUR responsibility to verify this data & do so At YOUR Own Risk.

I work these loads up in my own way & start below Start levels listed in many manuals from my own researching and are tested At MY Own Risk. I can only claim that this is what "I" have found for data. Others may have different results.

Note the temperature(conditions) when I was testing these loads also. It was about 31F. That may mean that were anyone else to use this load at some other temperature( or conditions), the data may not be the same due, to temperature(conditions) variables.

I believe each firearm is different in how it performs with different loads. What might work for me & a particular model of firearm, may not work for you or anyone else with the same model firearm.

I am only offering this as an attempt to help out. I am not recommending anything but only sharing part of what I have done so far by myself. I would hope that you , or anyone else who reads these types of topics, takes the time to actually go & find the info themselves by researching what folks offer as the loads that work for them. That responsibility of making safe loads is each persons responsibility & not just what one reads on the internet.

I would suggest that anyone who wishes to test loads should at least spend the $$ to get good reputable & recent information from manuals, and to also get a good chronograph to test the loads they create. It is also good practice to start lower & work up if nothing else for safety reasons.

Each of us is responsible for our own doins. I know I am repeating myself, but sometimes that is unfortunately necessary for some folks... Some would say, "Preaching to the choir.", but I also know there are a lot of folks asking questions about "what powder to use?", etc., & may or may not know what they are doing with what info they are given. We do not know who reads these topics & what experience level or common sense level their mind may be at. I get hesitant about sharing info sometimes, because I do not want to have anything "I' share, to be misread & then someone else goes & screws up.

Anyway...

I wish ya G'luck! with whatever powder choices your decide upon. I hope you find what ya seek & are safe when ya use the load(s) ya choose.

--------------

P.S. - tested with powder to boolit & raised to fire, IIRC. ( powder "forward" IOW) Then kept in firing position on sandbags until done with string. Meaning the other cases had powder affected by recoil after the first shot.

[derek45]

S&W 642 chrony data

some of this is +p data

158gr
6.6 HS-6 838
5.4 CFE-p 821
5.2 unique 857
4.8 HP38 821
4.3 TG 830

[Outpost75]

VERY important factor in REVOLVERS is cylinder gap!

Mean Assembly Tolerance in NEW revolvers before proofing is 0.005" pass and 0.006" hold.

It is normal for guns to open up 0.001" after proofing.

You can expect a drop of 10 fps for each 0.001" increase in cylinder gap above Mean Assembly Tolerance with standard pressure .38 Special loads, more than that with +P.

It is also normal for a 2" gun at min. tolerance 0.003 pass/0.004" hold to produce higher velocities than a 4" gun at maximum customer service tolerance [for a used gun] of 0.008" pass/0.009" hold.

With .38 +P, +P+ LE or .357 difference is even greater!

[BD]

Bullseye, 231, Titegroup and Unique all work just fine in the .38 sp. I think the easiest way to push the velocity of a 158 grainer in a .38 is to go to a RNFP which moves more boolit out front of the case, leaving more capacity in the case. It is my belief that this can get me to 800 fps + at the very low end of +P pressures.
I wore out my first M36 in about 10,000 rounds. Had nothing to do with the pressure levels, it was the firing pin bushing that got so worn the primer hits became too random for reliability. I'm working on the second one, (a 442 with the transfer bar, so it might last longer?). I'll let you know if it doesn't outlast me.

[BD]

By the way, Quickload is a useful tool as a guideline for pressure and all around predictor for rifles, but it's pretty much worthless for predicting velocity in revolvers. In part due to the barrel gap and in part due to the extreme variability of real world velocities between individual revolvers, even those with from the same manufacturer with consecutive serial numbers. This issue was well covered in an article in one of the reloading manuals years ago titled something like, "Why ballisticians get grey hair". There are simply too many possibilities for variation in the production of a revolver to expect predictable velocities out of such short barrels.

[uscra112]

Bonz, I am not a Quickload user....but I suspect that your problem may be the barrel length entered. When we talk about any barrel other than a revolver we generally measure from breechface to muzzle.....but with revolvers the barrel is the barrel exclusive of the cylinder length. Add the cylinder and your 1 7/8 barrel is suddenly more like a 3.4 inch barrel. In any case the chrony does not agree with the conclusion QL generated.

I am a dedicated Quickload user, and you have hit the nail on the head. I have done a bunch of loads for a S&W Model 60, so I'm more than a little familiar with the QL model for .38 snubbies. My barrel from forcing cone to muzzle is 1.8 inches, length breech face to muzzle is 3.8 inches, and THAT is the number QL expects you to enter.

Yes, you can get a Power Pistol load to show 800+ fps, from that barrel length, with a pressure around 17,000 psi. (My model settled on 5.5 grains, not 6.0. Seating depth matters - I'm using .437 inches. )

I use PP in the 9mm, but in my .38 I'm still partial to Bullseye. PP was engineered for 20kpsi and up, while Bullseye works well even at low single digits, and I do a lot of that for my antique pistols and small game rifles.

Notice that QL has no ability to account for pressure loss at the cylinder gap, so it's probably going to report higher velocities than the Chrony does. I don't bother using the Chrony with pistol loads, so I can't offer any hard data.

[mtgrs737]

For very short barrels I like fast powders, those in the Red Dot burning rate range. Always refer to loads published in loading manuals or just contact the powder manufacturers for their recommendations.

[uscra112]

I've loaded a lot of Red Dot, too, but not in the .38 Special. In the QL model it shows as burning 100% before the bullet exits. So maybe less muzzle flash.

[robert12345]

The classic load for 38 spl, is 5.0 Unique.

[Hi-Speed]

Old post, but I’ll add that 5.6 grs Power Pistol and 158 gr Speer LSWC and CCI-500 primers gets me from low 825 FPS avg to high 845 fps avg on separate tests. Shot faster in Summer heat. Chronograph business is sometimes confusing.

[Carrier]

S&W 642 chrony data

some of this is +p data

158gr
6.6 HS-6 838
5.4 CFE-p 821
5.2 unique 857
4.8 HP38 821
4.3 TG 830

That 6.6 grains of HS-6 must sound like a 357 out of that short barrel. A real accurate load out of my 14 with a 8 3/8” barrel is 5.9 grains of HS-6 with a 158 plated bullet.