What powder for 158gr SWC and 38spl snubnose?

[JNG3]

Hopefully this is the right forum for this question.


158gr cast SWC brinell hardness 12
1 7/8" barrel +p rated 38spl

I have multiple reloading manuals with plenty of data. But all the data is for 6" similar length barrels. What powder or powders should I be looking at for the best velocity from a snubnose? Unique, 2400, and Silhoutte come to mind. Looking for 800 fps. Would like some advice before purchasing powder that may not produce the velocity and that I may not have a use for in other calibers. Thanks in advance.

[robg]

ramshot true blue meters well similar speed to unique clean burning

[Tracy]

My first choice would probably be 2400, but if you already have Unique, that would work too.
I've actually loaded a 195 grain #358430 to 800+ fps in a 2" Taurus M85 using Alcan AL8, which is similar in burning speed to 2400.

[OptimusPanda]

If you can find some clays I have found that to shoot very well, even in the snubs. I think max charge was 3 grains. Just under that is what I normally load.

[Outpost75]

These chronograph data from early Ruger SP101 chambered in .38 Special with 2" barrel, cylinder gap Pass 0.004", Hold 0.005":

Federal 147-grain HSHP +P+ LE 922 fps, 15 Sd
Winchester 158 JHP 11.0 Alliant #2400, Winchester case, WSP, OAL 1.40" 924 fps, 21 Sd - exceeds industry +P standard pressure by about 15%!
Winchester X38SPD 158-grain Lead SWC+P 821 fps, 36 Sd
Winchester 130-grain SXT 920 fps, 23 Sd
Winchester 147-grain JHP +P 857 fps, 14 Sd
Winchester 110-grain JHP Q4070 +P+ LE 1057 fps, 21 Sd

If you want 800 fps with a 158-grain lead SWC 4 grains of Bullseye with the Remington .358" component bullet gave 775 fps, 20Sd from the 2-inch. barrel and was accurate.

[salpal48]

My first any only Choice is 4.0 GRN W 231 with 158 SWC This was the lyman accuracy Load. I have been using this for a great many years. without Fail
Sal

[35remington]

A great number of powders will meet your criteria out of that barrel length, and some will not fall short by much even if they are standard pressure. Unique, Herco, W231, Power Pistol, etc. will all do it. So will a lot of others. Power Pistol supposedly gets high velocity, and I have verified that it does exceed your requirement even at supposed standard pressure, but it's a bit blasty compared to other powders

For an eye opener: Try velocity with powder near bullet, then powder near primer (raise or lower before firing) and note the results. Since you have specifically mentioned Unique between 4.8 and 5 grains will likely get you there. I have used 2400 in 38's but generally prefer something a bit cleaner burning to avoid tying up the gun with loose powder granules getting where they shouldn't.

I have Silhouette but have not yet used it in .38.

[Tracy]

Ed Harris has recommended a load of 4.5 grains of Bullseye with a 158 JHP for right at 800 fps out of a 2" SP101. Speer listed 4.9 grains of Bullseye under a 158 jhp in their no. 10 manual, and 4.2 Bullseye under a 158 lead bullet for a standard pressure load in both their no. 10 and 12 manuals. I don't have their later or earlier manuals. I also don't have their no. 11 any more, but I used to and I'm pretty sure it listed a +P load of 4.5 BE under 158 lead. I used that load for years, and in fact have a Little Dandy measure bushing for it.
Lead gives higher velocity and lower pressure than jacketed, and I'm pretty sure 4.5 BE would do what you want. In fact, 4.2 grains would likely do it, and is not even +P.

[35remington]

4.9 Bullseye with a 158 is way, way beyond plus P. 4.2 is Plus P and then some in current manuals. Beware.....check recent manuals for proper recommendations as old data is often overboard pressurewise, as it was never pressure tested. If you have a reference to where Ed Harris recommended 4.5 Bullseye, I'd wouldn't mind seeing that.

[kenyerian]

http://castpics.net/project2/CastDat...8+Special+%2BP Castpics has some good +P loads.

38 Special +P

158

158 LSWC

AL Bullseye

3.8

945 I have went through a lot of Bullseye with this load.

[Blackwater]

There are many powders that'll work, and there probably isn't that much difference in performance between them to fret about. With a snubby, you just can't get enough velocity in .38 to make that much difference, so the way to go, IMO, is the heavier bullets - 158's & 168's. You'll also want minimal muzzle flash in case you have to shoot in low light (to protect your night vision and not blind yourself). Clean burning is way down the list of priorities for a load like this, and anyway, it's really easy to run a brush into a snubby's bore and cylinders, and get any fouling out. Accuracy is and will always be Priority One, though. Only hits count in a gunfight, and exact placement really DOES matter. Ask any pathologist how much if you don't believe me. Mostly, the medium burn rate powders will likely be your best bet. However, I HAVE noted that 2400 often produces minimal flash. I've never loaded that load in .38, but maybe I should give it a try. I surely think it'd be worth pursuing, now that I think about it.

[Larry Gibson]

I have shot a bajillion 38 SPL rounds out of 1 7/8 - 2 1/2" revolvers over the years especially when I was LEO firearms instructor. My standard practice load was a 150 - 160 cast SWC over 3.8 gr Bullseye. Always was and still is an excellent load. It's what I use in my M19 2 1/2". I use the Lyman 358477 and the Lee TL358-158-SWC.

Larry Gibson

[fecmech]

I would recommend staying away from 2400 in your snubby or any .38 spl wheel gun. It burns very dirty with many paticles at less than 20kpsi. Unless you eject your cases with the muzzle straight up these powder particles get under the extractor star and tie the gun up. Hard to beat Bullseye in the .38 spl.
PS. The new BE86 from Alliant looks very promising for HV in the .38 spl.

[Tracy]

4.9 Bullseye with a 158 is way, way beyond plus P. 4.2 is Plus P and then some in current manuals. Beware.....check recent manuals for proper recommendations as old data is often overboard pressurewise, as it was never pressure tested. If you have a reference to where Ed Harris recommended 4.5 Bullseye, I'd wouldn't mind seeing that.

http://handloads.com/loaddata/myload...p?email=ke4sky

Yeah, I know. Because data published this morning is 100% correct, while anything published before today is a pipe bomb. I guess that's why there are no old .38 Special revolvers in existence, since they were all blown up years ago by all those idiots who published prior manuals.

I'm not recommending 4.9 grains, merely pointing out that Speer used to recommend it before they stopped publishing any 158 grain +P loads. Ed doesn't recommend his load for S&W snubbies, but his load uses a jacketed bullet which raises pressures.
Lyman Pistol & Revolver Handbook lists a +P load of 4.5 Bullseye under a 358311 (158 grain) at 18,200 CUP.
And I know, CUP is not necessarily the same as PSI tested this week with a peizoelectric transducer. But you won't find any such data using your exact boolit and your exact alloy, either.

[RogerDat]

I tried titegroup because bullseye was just not available and TG was. Seemed fairly decent in snubby use. No chrono so no idea of actual FPS and I tend to load the revolver stuff on the lower rather than higher side. Might be worth looking into some load data for titegroup. Member here suggested it to me as a BE alternative.

[bangerjim]

I load TiteGroup and ETR7 in ALL my 38's (and 357mag)......short, medium, & long. Even carbines. All perform with excellent results. Just use the load data you have in you books!

banger

[35remington]

Just pointing out that more rigorously tested data correctly lists the old loads as beyond plus P pressures, which they were. Information worth knowing when load data is being tossed about.

Lyman's PARH is equally dated now. Plus P is now noted as being well below 4.5 grains. Do with it what you will.

Ed noted that 4.5 grains Bullseye was beyond Plus P pressures in your reference as well, FWIW.

[Outpost75]

I know Ed well and we both used to shoot at the Quantico gun club 20-some years ago. We used to have access to a Universal Receiver and pressure test equipment and did quite a bit of pressure testing by the old radial copper method. With Hercules Bullseye produced in the late 1970s and early '80s the 4.5 grain load shot great in the Rugers and Colt OP, but was NOT something you would want to use in any J- or K-frame S&W, maybe an L-frame would be OK, but it was 20,000+ cup which absolutely exceeds current +P standard. SP101 was designed from the gitgo as being suitable for .357 and a .38 Special chambered SP 101 has no issues with the +P+ law enforcement loads, which generally run up to maximum 22,500 cup sample average, and 24,000 X-bar+3 Sigma.

[Tracy]

I wouldn't and don't shoot +P on a regular basis in a J or K frame Smith, but I don't shy away from carry and occasional practice loads in the 20-22K range in my K frames. K frames have had heat treated cylinders since the early '30s, and S&W was making .357 Mag K frames since long before SAAMI reduced the .357 pressure spec to 35K (because K frames were loosening up; not blowing up with continual use of 40K+ loads).
John Taffin actually used to carry and practice with a J frame Chief's loaded with Skeeter Skelton's .38/44 load of a 158 grain 358156 over 13.5 grains of old (new is slightly faster) 2400, which is full .357 Mag pressure.
http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt38spcl.htm
In his own words: "Skeeter Skelton also favored the use of .38 Special brass in his .357 Magnums, favorites of which were the six and one-half inch Ruger Flat-top, the four-inch Model 19, and the five-inch Model 27. Skeeter used Lyman's Ray Thompson designed #358156 semi-wadcutter gas check bullet seated in the bottom crimp groove over Elmer's powder charge. This load is less powerful by about fifty feet per second than Keith's .38 Special load. I not only use Skeeter's load in .357's, but also in my .38 Chief's Special. This is not a recommended load. But I shoot it sparingly and it is very comforting to me to know that the little two-inch Chief's Special will deliver the 158 grain SWC bullet at over 1100 fps."

Bottom line: I don't recommend any of these loads. I don't recommend handloading, casting bullets, shooting guns even with factory ammo, riding motorcycles, or lots of other things I personally do, because I don't want to be held responsible if something goes wrong. But if you don't know, you would be amazed at some of the weak guns that have been and in some cases continue to be built for .38 Special. Big name factory ammo makers and big name load data publishers take these guns into account, which is why we see factory .38 ammo that soots the cases when fired.

Don't get me wrong, 35Remington; you are absolutely correct in pointing this out, and anyone loading for .38 Special needs to know it. But for those willing to accept the risk for their own actions, it is also worth knowing that a modern .38 Special revolver is not gonna blow up just because some arbitrary threshold of 18,000 psi is crossed. Most modern .38 Special revolvers are also made in a .357 Mag version, and that is 35,000 psi.

[cephas53]

Have been recently working on this with the powders I have on hand, 231, Bullseye and Unique. Using a 162 gr RCBS SWC I also found as Outpost stated 4.0 grs. Bullseye ran 772 fps.
Unique easily took me over 800 fps.