Comparing b.p.'s of the 1800's to today

[w30wcf]

Guys,
Thank you for the kind words.

upnorthwis,
The reason for the heavier fouling might possibly be that the bullet lube had dried out as I found in dissecting the vintage cartridges I extracted the powder from. Either that and /or the quality of powder quality was below the great powders of that time.

w30wcf

[Klaus]

@w30wcf

thx a lot to handle this very interesting topic because it will bring some light in the darkness of the question what was the truht of yesterdays Blackpowder and there accuracy / handling / fouling we often read and never could answer because the todays BP are not able to reproduce the results of the old days.

If we read in forums of todays long range shooter using PP Bullets we see that they must wipe between shots to have accuracy. But in the past as PP Bullets are common in most Cartridge i dont think about that they wipe after every shoot to get accuracy.
if we read about battles like Rokes Drift or at Pleva ( Turkish / Russia War ) they have had very good accuracy on long distance with their present Ammo in rapid Fire to defend their positions.
So my question is if todays Black Powder Manufacturer will be able to process this high quality Black of the Old days?
Todays Black are **** as my Powder Dealer says it is not the Money worth......

wish you all a Happy New Year

Klaus

[BrentD]

Klaus, long range target shooting has little to do with military requirements. And when you say "shoot with accuracy ", what does that mean? Match winning, competitive accuracy or accuracy sufficient for mass volley firing by the military. These are not comparable. Wiping will always be more accurate than not wiping and always has been.

[Gunlaker]

I think when you want to compare two powders you have to decide how you define better. For hunting a bunch of extra speed could be a good thing, but for target work I would rather have one of the newer powders that gave much less muzzle velocity variation. At even 500 yards you will get significant vertical spread in your groups with such large velocity variations. I'm biased because I only hunt paper Chris.

[Jpholla]

People today have experimented with making better black powder...it can certainly be done, but the bottom line is that it costs too much to do on a commercial scale. Time and wages cost too much today. It's no secret what makes good black powder. The most important things are not to over-cook the charcoal, and the longer it is milled, the better it will be. People have found that even substandard ingredients can out-perform commercial powder with enough milling time. Even sulfur-less black powder can perform as well as commercial with enough milling time. Back then it's all there was, so it was worth the extra effort. Today, it's a fringe novelty and few people would be willing to pay two to three or more times the price for a little extra performance.

[BrentD]

Who knows how much folks are willing to pay if it isn't available. How does anyone know? If there was truly better powder, I would pay 2-3x more for it. But I have rather rigorous requirement for proof of superiority. However, no one has ever even claimed to have a powder better than Swiss.

[Klaus]

Hi Brent,

i would say with "shoot with accuracy" that an Infantrie Man was able to hit a target ( man sized) at 400 or maybe 500 yards under given battle circumstance with his present PP Rounds and the old BP without cleaning the Barrel.
Match Competition are a different thing for sure.

Klaus

Klaus, long range target shooting has little to do with military requirements. And when you say "shoot with accuracy ", what does that mean? Match winning, competitive accuracy or accuracy sufficient for mass volley firing by the military. These are not comparable. Wiping will always be more accurate than not wiping and always has been.

[BrentD]

Klaus, that can be done with today's powder and a decent grease cookie. But that is nowhere near target grade accuracy. That's where shooting with a fouled barrel really becomes challenging - so challenging that is simply hasn't been done.

[Jpholla]

Who knows how much folks are willing to pay if it isn't available. How does anyone know? If there was truly better powder, I would pay 2-3x more for it. But I have rather rigorous requirement for proof of superiority. However, no one has ever even claimed to have a powder better than Swiss.

Yeah, I expected someone to say they would pay several times more for better...but what I'm saying is the number of people is so few that the powder companies do not see a benefit at this point to make better grades. If by "no one" you mean a commercial company, then I believe you are correct in saying Swiss is the best. If you want better, you will have to make it yourself--which may be quite reasonable to you if money is no object and you want the absolute best. There are many people currently proving they can do better than Swiss. Anyone seriously interested in black powder re-development should look to the hobby firework makers. Some of them have competitions to see who can make the best black powder, and commercial powder is used as a control. It is shocking how much better they do.

Bear in mind that powder companies are large endeavors and must maintain a balance. If memory serves me right Swiss's recipe uses more sulfur than many traditionally did. The wood they use to make charcoal is not the absolute best; it is a mixture of what is generally available and will be generally available for the foreseeable future to maintain lot to lot consistency . I believe the high sulfur content is used to help make up for lower quality charcoal and shorter milling times. Swiss may be good, but it can be improved. Just not in the current balance of things. With respect, I just don't see enough people willing to pay (hypothetically) $100 for a pound of powder to have the absolute best. If Swiss wants to be the best, they don't have to make the best; they simply have to make it a little better than the next best company. And if we look at the amazing accuracy being attained with what is currently available, how much incentive do they really have to become better? How many emails do they get every day requesting a better powder?

There is plenty of information online about black powder. This guy http://www.musketeer.ch/index.html has one of the most scientific approaches to the subject. Ironically, he happens to be Swiss.

Another random though: Many people today use 3f in roles where 2f was traditionally used. I think this is possibly more proof that yesteryear's powders were better.

[BrentD]

I have seen exactly zero people with powder that is better than Swiss. Not one. I know of several that make their own and it is not even the quality of Chinese fireworks powder, which is piss poor indeed.

I don't know what "better" means to fireworks people, but "better" in shooting means accuracy. I'll wager that there is not one person making powder that can outperform Swiss on targets.

Swiss might be improved upon, but right now they are top of the heap by a long ways.

Granulation size means nothing about quality. Results on targets do. Your suggestion that it does mean something suggests that you equate better with more energy or power. That will get you nowhere fast in target shooting.

[w30wcf]

Klaus,
You are most welcome. Happy New Year to you as well!

Jpholla & Brent D,
Thank you for the additional information.

My experience has been in repeating rifles, mostly with the 44wcf/44-40, a cartridge developing less than 15,000 psi with b.p. Using a quality b.p. like Swiss and the original two lube grooved bullet, accuracy has been consistent for many rounds fired (100) with no cleaning nor blow tubing. Wiping between rounds did not improve accuracy. Certainly cartridges burning larger quantities of b.p. and higher sectional density bullets are another matter entirely.

w30wcf

[Klaus]

Hi Brent

you`re right, but it would be a pleasure to see a practical trial between
a, let`s say , two Martini Henry Rifles and each 20 Rounds of orginal history Ammo and 20 Rounds of todays present Ammo on a given distance .

who would be the winner in fouling issues and accuracy ?

Klaus

Klaus, that can be done with today's powder and a decent grease cookie. But that is nowhere near target grade accuracy. That's where shooting with a fouled barrel really becomes challenging - so challenging that is simply hasn't been done.

[Klaus]

Hello w30wcf,

thx a lot and all the best for 2016

i have run a trial with the RCBS 44-200 FP and Emmerts Lube
35 grs Swiss 2 with a similar good result as your ( 40 Rounds)
Kik FFFG are good as Swiss.

Got poor results with Wano Nr.1 or Wano FFg Grades
first 10 Rounds are accurate as well but after the 12th Round the Bullets spread all over the Paper.



We found out a "new" Powder from Wano which called Sporting Powder.
Have just very good results in Muzzleloaders and 45-70 - 100 or even 44-40 with FFFG and FFG .
This Powder burns relative clean and need one damped Patch to clean the Barrel

Lot of Guys here moved over from Swiss to Wano Sporting Powder.
Unfortunately we have no access to the Olde Eynesford here in Germany
so far i read in serval Forums it shall be the new Highlight

Klaus

Klaus,
You are most welcome. Happy New Year to you as well!

Jpholla & Brent D,
Thank you for the additional information.

My experience has been in repeating rifles, mostly with the 44wcf/44-40, a cartridge developing less than 15,000 psi with b.p. Using a quality b.p. like Swiss and the original two lube grooved bullet, accuracy has been consistent for many rounds fired (100) with no cleaning nor blow tubing. Wiping between rounds did not improve accuracy. Certainly cartridges burning larger quantities of b.p. and higher sectional density bullets are another matter entirely.

w30wcf

[upnorthwis]

Update to my #20 post where I was going to shoot the boolits and then load with Swiss 1-1/2. Am going to make a change to that. Will pull the boolits instead, then measure the amount of powder, replace primers, (the original ones where all hangfires), then see if I can relube boolits. Then reload with the original powder and boolit. New primers may give it a better chance to ignite the powder. Then I'll load up a Swiss equivalent for comparison. But it's going to have to be above ZERO and my recent prostate operation will have to feel better.

[upnorthwis]

Another update. Took the remaining UMC 11mm apart. These are the ones that I shot the 5 shot group with that were all hangfires. Powder looked like FFg. Tried to shoot the original Kynoc loads for a group. None would go off, even after recocking and hitting primer again. Took them apart. Powder was everything from dust to Cannon size. Will not be able to replace primers in Kynoc as they are Berdan. Instead of loading this powder in the 71/84 Mauser, will shoot in a scoped Browning .40-65WCF. And once again, it's going to have to be warmer with less blowing snow.

[kokomokid]

When Venturino and Garbe wrote thier spg reloading book back in the early 90s they recomended magnum primers which makes me wonder if the Goex powder at that time was even sporting grade.

[Gunlaker]

I think that plain Goex is all over the map. Several years ago I put a lot of effort into getting a low SD load with Goex Fg for one of my .45-70's. Federal Large Rifle Magnum Match primers were clearly the best. Using a two diameter bullet I found that it took 74gr and those primers. I ended up just over 1200fps and got excellent muzzle vel statistics. Until I got a new lot of powder.

With the latest lot I've had excellent accuracy breech seating one of my .38-55's using Goex Fg and large pistol primers. Go figure.

I find that different lots of the stuff can vary by quite a bit.

I have yet to go through my first case of Goex Olde Eynsford. I hope that it is much more consistent from lot to lot.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

I've been thru 3 lots of Eynsford, haven't had anything change yet.

[Gunlaker]

That's great to hear Don.

Chris.

[BrentD]

impressive.

be careful!