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Thread: 10 gauge round ball loads.

  1. #121
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Weren't you a Toolmaker before you became a Gunsmith? Why don't you convert one of those Texans or MECs to 10 ga? I think you can handle making the sizing die, and the Wad Guide you could adapt form a MEC and the Crimp Dies as well. You'd be out a few parts from MEC which are generally pretty cheap.

    On another note I know you have a nice lathe,,, why not buy some 360 brass rod and make some Brass shells. Pretty sure you could handle the machining aspect, it isn't that hard.
    The problem is, time is money, and most of my time belongs to my customers. If you look at how long it would take me to do the things that you mention (which I am very capable of) it would be cheaper to just buy these things.

    Two ways to go at that. You could either make the hull one piece complete and recycle the brass chips. Do the ID first,,,

    O
    r make the base and solder a tube onto it,, Provided you could find something close to make the tube out of. Lots of cartridge cases are made this way and it is the most economical use of materials. Also you could make the primer pockets any for any size primer you wanted ( like Large Rifle?) What's the OD and ID of a 10ga?
    Yes, lots of options for a man who has a bunch of machinery, money, and time sitting idle, which I do not.

    Something to remember,,, All machine tools were originally designed and built to produce Interchangeable Parts for Guns. Engines and Transmissions came later. You already have a Mill and Lathe, look at this project from the Toolmakers prospective and you'll have a good time figuring out how to make this thing kill dinosaurs.
    OK, from a toolmakers perspective, I'd better be making over $27 per hour, or moving fast enough to make it cheaper to make it at that rate, than to buy it outright and be done with it.

    Just wait til you see what I've been building over the Xmas holiday. You're gonna love it.
    I am curious what you've got yourself into!
    Precision in the wrong place is only a placebo.

  2. #122
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    Tim: I must confess,,, at BPM,,, I farm out the vast majority of the work that gets done,,, simply because they can make it cheaper than I can.

    However for special items or items specifically for me, or Prototypes, I do the work. In fact I'm making parts today for my current project which You will appreciate.

    Hot tip: Work 8 hours a day and shut it down, or less than that if get your work for the day done. I set goals of what I need to get done and when it's done I'm done. Work on YOUR projects after work or on weekends. I did this for years, and still do. IN fact I worked 12 hours a day for the first couple of years I was in business because I was still working for someone else too. (8 for them 4 for me) Kept doing this until I was making more in 4 hours than I was making in 8.

    Do not work on customers work on weekends unless you have a machine setup that you don't want to disturb. Use that time for yourself.

    You will eventually evolve to this anyway as you will get sick of it. Everybody does. That doesn't mean you won't like what you do, it simply means there are other things in life than work.

    Unfortunately you can't bill time spent on Your Projects at your normal shop rate. If you could I'd have Half a Million$ in that Jeep of mine.

    Incidentally I am working today and starting by driving to Oxnard to get hoses crimped and delivering parts. Unfortunately I don't get paid to do this but it is still part of the job so it just gets added to the costs of doing business. I call it work related BS and you will find that the BS is what eats you up.

    That's why I farm stuff out now. They can deal with the BS and it doesn't cost me a cent!

    What are the OD and ID dimensions on a 10 ga Hull. Maybe there's a cheaper way to make them.

    I do have a CNC lathe?

    Randy
    Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 12-28-2015 at 05:29 PM.
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
    www.buchananprecisionmachine.com

  3. #123
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Thanks Randy, but it's all good. The struggle is the glory (BTW, I do not work on sunday no matter what).
    Last edited by MBTcustom; 12-29-2015 at 02:24 AM.
    Precision in the wrong place is only a placebo.

  4. #124
    Boolit Master
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    When loading RB in 12 and 20 gauge I use recycled Styrofoam packing material to fill the extra space. Lightweight and it disappears upon firing.

  5. #125
    Boolit Master
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    Hi Tim,

    The thought occurred to me that maybe a section of wooden dowel might work as a spacer. I found I used an awful lot of wads that added up to some coin in the end when making up light 1 and 1-1/8 oz. loads for my old 10 gauges. Just a thought, might be dangerous?

  6. #126
    Boolit Mold
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    10 gauge round ball loads

    I've been enjoying this long 2 1/2 year old thread as I am about to try a bore diameter RB in my own 10 ga. SxS ejector gun for possible use as a defensive griz load to replace my hot loaded .45-70 lever gun. Wondering if there have been any new developments, good or bad on this concept.

    W.W. Greener seemed to approve of a smoothbore 8 ga. double rifle "ball gun" for elephants out to 60 yards...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 8 bore.jpg   IMG_2874.jpg   IMG_2876.jpg  
    Last edited by Field Gun; 02-22-2018 at 06:48 AM.

  7. #127
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Not many here using 10 ga. and slugs or round balls but you might look up Bikerbeans posts. He has a 10 ga. slug mould that turbo1889 designed. Seems to me accuracy was pretty good with the slug.

    From my experiences with 12 ga. full bore and smaller ball, random spin is your enemy! You want the ball to leave the muzzle with no spin at all. I tried 0.690" RB's many years ago and it was so undersize groups were measured in feet at 25 yards. It is hard to believe the ball can go so far astray so quickly! I never found any shotcups the 0.690" ball would work in either.

    A few years ago I decided to try round balls again and got a 0.662" ball mould for use in shotcups and a 0.735" ball mould for bore size. Both gave pretty much the same accuracy of 3" to 4" groups at 50 yards with best loads. I am now loading with 0.678" RB which fits perfectly in WW shotcups.

    I found best 0.735" RB load was using a plastic gas seal over the powder then 1/2" hard card wad and nitro card wads to get crimp height. That worked the best for me. Some recovered balls showed an uneven "belt" around the equator which to me indicates the ball rolled into the bore either off the forcing cone or by uneven opening of the crimp... or maybe a bit of both.

    Point being that you want the ball to center in the bore and not pick up any spin. A slightly over bore size ball will not spin in the bore. A ball of exactly bore size might and one even just slightly smaller than bore size certainly can. An appropriate wad column and ball support should prevent the ball from spinning ~ a donut wad under the ball or COW, cornmeal or other to make a "cushion" under the ball should help as well.

    I have found it easier to load balls into shotcups than make up full bore ball loads in that regard and accuracy to 50 yards is pretty impressive and consistent. To get there I found dropping a nitro card wad or two into the shotcup then a scoop of COW or cornmeal made a big difference. With them the wads try to extrude around the ball often resulting in failed wads or gas seals.

    For easy loading I'd go with a ball in shotcup. If 10 ga. wads are similar to 12 ga. for petal thickness then a 0.735" RB should be about perfect but that's a guess on my part. Jeff Tanner in the UK will make any size ball mould you want so you should be able to get perfect fit with at least one brand of wads you choose.

    And just a comment... I hope your S x S gun doesn't have chokes if you are going for bore size ball or snug fit of ball in shotcup. Chokes and full bore "solid" slugs/balls are not good for each other. You'll want a push fit through the choke if the gun is choked. Probably not the best for accuracy. If cylinder bore then no worries.

    Barrel regulation will likely be an issue at long range but for close range bear defense not likely anything to worry about.

    I am sure a 10 ga. RB will leave a mark! Two will really ruin a bear's day I suspect.

    I hope you post results with 10 ga. slug and/or balls.

    Longbow

  8. #128
    Boolit Mold
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    Thanks Longbow. I've got a hefty 1959 vintage Spanish AYA gun with 22" (shortened from 32" by a previous owner) barrels, no choke. I was surprised to find out my bores slug out at .762", .013" below "normal".

    Good comment regarding spin and bore fit.

    I'm thinking of ordering one of Tanner's molds @ .765" and not using shotcups for max. weight and diameter. I don't want to swage them down too much in the barrel as I'm concerned about pressure in search of maximum velocity.
    Last edited by Field Gun; 02-23-2018 at 03:48 AM.

  9. #129
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I was a bit concerned about 0.735" RB's in 12 ga. So used a dowel and mallet to drive one through the bore of my gun... it took very little effort to start then almost none after. There is not much meat at the equator of a ball.

    I've shot those from a rifled gun with 0.727" groove with no issues.

    0.003" over your bore should be fine and likely enough to hold the ball straight and true.

    Longbow
    Last edited by longbow; 02-23-2018 at 09:40 PM. Reason: Spelling

  10. #130
    Boolit Mold
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    I might be able to increase the diameter a bit I suppose. I am planning to cast them of hard alloy like wheel weights which shrink less than pure lead I believe.

    I was reviewing my options of loading with factory RB molds and shot cup wads, which average .032" - .035" pedal thickness. Not sure how much squeeze I can put on it under those conditions. The Lee .690" ball with an .070" total thickness wad = .760" - only .002" shy or bore diameter. The Lyman .715" ball in a .032" cup would end up @ .779", a bit fat I think for my .762" bore.

    Interesting to note that Ballistic Products lists the .715" ball in a shot cup as a recommended load for 10 ga. Knowing there is variation in bore diameters, The plastic shot cup material may be pretty elastic...
    Last edited by Field Gun; 02-23-2018 at 10:17 PM. Reason: added info

  11. #131
    Boolit Grand Master

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    While maybe not applicable, my experience to date is that slugs or balls in shotcups should be a fairly easy push through the bore or the petals tend to crush and/or shear.

    You might actually be better off with the 0.690" RB and if necessary paper patch it to correct fit. Seems small but your bore is tight.

    Another option would be to look at steel shot wads which should have thicker petals. Not sure about 10 ga. but for 12 ga., a 0.662" (16 ga.) ball fits tight in a steel shot wad.

    Just saying there may be some other options.

    Longbow

  12. #132
    Boolit Mold
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    I'm also wondering about scaling up the Lyman sabot slug to my bore diameter and having a mold made by Accurate Molds. The Lyman diablo slug seems to be the best of the breed in terms of smooth bore flight characteristics, blunt presentation and a thick rim on the tail that might hang together especially in hard alloy.

    0.765" would make it 12% larger in all dimensions than the Lyman 525 gr. Crude calculations indicate it might weigh around 750 gr depending on how large you make the tail socket. The idea being that 1 3/4 - 2 oz. is an optimal payload and the sectional density far better than a ball for penetration.

    I'm not considering in the fact it probably kills on both ends of the gun!

  13. #133
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by longbow View Post
    Not many here using 10 ga. and slugs or round balls but you might look up Bikerbeans posts. He has a 10 ga. slug mould that turbo1889 designed. Seems to me accuracy was pretty good with the slug.

    From my experiences with 12 ga. full bore and smaller ball, random spin is your enemy! You want the ball to leave the muzzle with no spin at all. I tried 0.690" RB's many years ago and it was so undersize groups were measured in feet at 25 yards. It is hard to believe the ball can go so far astray so quickly! I never found any shotcups the 0.690" ball would work in either.

    A few years ago I decided to try round balls again and got a 0.662" ball mould for use in shotcups and a 0.735" ball mould for bore size. Both gave pretty much the same accuracy of 3" to 4" groups at 50 yards with best loads. I am now loading with 0.678" RB which fits perfectly in WW shotcups.

    I found best 0.735" RB load was using a plastic gas seal over the powder then 1/2" hard card wad and nitro card wads to get crimp height. That worked the best for me. Some recovered balls showed an uneven "belt" around the equator which to me indicates the ball rolled into the bore either off the forcing cone or by uneven opening of the crimp... or maybe a bit of both.

    Point being that you want the ball to center in the bore and not pick up any spin. A slightly over bore size ball will not spin in the bore. A ball of exactly bore size might and one even just slightly smaller than bore size certainly can. An appropriate wad column and ball support should prevent the ball from spinning ~ a donut wad under the ball or COW, cornmeal or other to make a "cushion" under the ball should help as well.

    I have found it easier to load balls into shotcups than make up full bore ball loads in that regard and accuracy to 50 yards is pretty impressive and consistent. To get there I found dropping a nitro card wad or two into the shotcup then a scoop of COW or cornmeal made a big difference. With them the wads try to extrude around the ball often resulting in failed wads or gas seals.

    For easy loading I'd go with a ball in shotcup. If 10 ga. wads are similar to 12 ga. for petal thickness then a 0.735" RB should be about perfect but that's a guess on my part. Jeff Tanner in the UK will make any size ball mould you want so you should be able to get perfect fit with at least one brand of wads you choose.

    And just a comment... I hope your S x S gun doesn't have chokes if you are going for bore size ball or snug fit of ball in shotcup. Chokes and full bore "solid" slugs/balls are not good for each other. You'll want a push fit through the choke if the gun is choked. Probably not the best for accuracy. If cylinder bore then no worries.

    Barrel regulation will likely be an issue at long range but for close range bear defense not likely anything to worry about.

    I am sure a 10 ga. RB will leave a mark! Two will really ruin a bear's day I suspect.

    I hope you post results with 10 ga. slug and/or balls.

    Longbow
    Newton's First Law states that a body remains in a state of rest or straight-line motion unless it is acted upon by an external force. But that straight line is going to be the last direction in which it was travelling when it left the muzzle. An undersized ball may be bouncing from one side of the bore to the other, let alone the choke if you have one.

    One advantage of the smoothbore is that having the bullet's centre of mass exactly on the bore axis is less important than it is with a rifle. In the rifle that centre of mass is describing a small-diameter helical path, and on exiting will fly off in the last direction that helix was pointing.

    That wooden plug sounds interesting, especially if you have a lathe or bench drill and a ¾in. (for 10ga) round-nosed end mill, burr or router bit. Make the front end concave, and it will very effectively prevent the ball from rolling. An alternative would be to mould a plug in a mould incorporating a ball bearing, from something like papier maché meltable plastic granules, epoxy-impregnated sawdust or wax.

  14. #134
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Field Gun View Post
    Thanks Longbow. I've got a hefty 1959 vintage Spanish AYA gun with 22" (shortened from 32" by a previous owner) barrels, no choke. I was surprised to find out my bores slug out at .762", .013" below "normal".

    Good comment regarding spin and bore fit.

    I'm thinking of ordering one of Tanner's molds @ .765" and not using shotcups for max. weight and diameter. I don't want to swage them down too much in the barrel as I'm concerned about pressure in search of maximum velocity.
    Sounds... er... cheap, but the AYA is a good, solid gun of excellent quality. .013in. would be a useful allowance for a rifling project. An existing barrel and cerrosafe alloy, probably a muzzle-loader to get the slow twist you need, would be usable as a rifling guide.

  15. #135
    Boolit Master
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    I killed deer this past season first with one of Bikerbeans slugs in a Parker NH 10 gauge it was the 730 grain .730" with a .010 mylar wrap . Then later i used a Parker EH 10 gauge with the rooskie 10 gauge version of the Lyman air rifle slug , that one weighs 630 grains and i dont remmember the diameter but its not to tight inside an SP-10 wad . The rooskie mold can be ordered on ebay or atleast thats where I got the one I have .
    Parker's , 6.5mm's and my family in the Philippines

  16. #136
    Boolit Man BigMrTong's Avatar
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    Hi, what book are these images from please ? Mike

    Quote Originally Posted by Field Gun View Post
    I've been enjoying this long 2 1/2 year old thread as I am about to try a bore diameter RB in my own 10 ga. SxS ejector gun for possible use as a defensive griz load to replace my hot loaded .45-70 lever gun. Wondering if there have been any new developments, good or bad on this concept.

    W.W. Greener seemed to approve of a smoothbore 8 ga. double rifle "ball gun" for elephants out to 60 yards...

  17. #137
    Boolit Mold
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ballistics in Scotland View Post
    Sounds... er... cheap, but the AYA is a good, solid gun of excellent quality. .013in. would be a useful allowance for a rifling project. An existing barrel and cerrosafe alloy, probably a muzzle-loader to get the slow twist you need, would be usable as a rifling guide.
    I've been looking into the rifling option to take advantage of the smaller bore diameter. Anyone out there doing this sort of thing?

  18. #138
    Boolit Mold
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6pt-sika View Post
    I killed deer this past season first with one of Bikerbeans slugs in a Parker NH 10 gauge it was the 730 grain .730" with a .010 mylar wrap . Then later i used a Parker EH 10 gauge with the rooskie 10 gauge version of the Lyman air rifle slug , that one weighs 630 grains and i dont remmember the diameter but its not to tight inside an SP-10 wad . The rooskie mold can be ordered on ebay or atleast thats where I got the one I have .
    I'll look for that - thanks, good suggestion!

  19. #139
    Boolit Mold
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigMrTong View Post
    Hi, what book are these images from please ? Mike
    It's from "The Gun and It's Development" by W.W. Greener, an 800 page volume. It's ninth edition was published in 1910. It starts with the longbow and works it's way up to firearms of the late 1800s. I got my copy from the NRA, re-published in 1995 as part of their firearms classics library.

  20. #140
    Boolit Master
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    Ah, I've got mine, in that same gold-tooled leather edition. When I spent many years in Saudi Arabia, I used to arrive with that or my matching copy of Ned Roberts's "The Muzzle-loading Caplock Rifle" at the top of my suitcase. It generally got me through without a customs search, fo it is bound in the same style they do religious works. I don't think they took me for anything but an unbeliever, but they thought any religion is better than no religion when it comes to alcohol and drug smuggling.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check