Load DataInline FabricationRotoMetals2Reloading Everything
Titan ReloadingWidenersMidSouth Shooters SupplyRepackbox
Lee Precision
Page 1 of 8 12345678 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 142

Thread: 10 gauge round ball loads.

  1. #1
    Boolit Grand Master

    MBTcustom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    6,994

    10 gauge round ball loads.

    I'm going to figure out how to do this.
    However, I think it is due diligence to ask here if anyone has a load for this or a reference? I feel I may actually be going into new territory here. I say that, only because I can find no loads whatsoever for 10 gauge slugs and absolutely nothing for bore diameter round ball.
    If you have any information on this I would greatly appreciate it.

    The bulk of my concern lies around the wad column and how I would get it stacked up behind the ball. The 10 gauge is so tall, it's going to take a pretty big stack of fiber wads to get that ball up there towards the end of the shell. Any advice will be appreciated from those who have dabbled in the "less than orthodox".

    Thanks!
    Precision in the wrong place is only a placebo.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master

    Hogtamer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    East central GA, Appling near Augusta
    Posts
    3,307
    6pt-Sika has a wealth of experience with all things 10 ga, especially older Parkers, etc. I'm sure he'll be along with some starting points.
    "My main ambition in life is to be on the devil's most wanted list."
    Leonard Ravenhill

  3. #3
    In Remembrance bikerbeans's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    1,989
    Tim,

    I have loaded bore diameter hollow base slugs for my H&R 10ga but I wouldn't shoot these slugs in an older double barrel. I had no luck buying fullbore 10ga roundballs or slugs so I had a custom mold built. I am guessing if you want a fullbore 10ga roundball you will have to order a custom mold. The largest roundball mould I could find is a 0.735" by Lyman. If you have a modern 10ga and want to try my HB slugs send me a PM.

    BB

  4. #4
    Boolit Grand Master

    MBTcustom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    6,994
    That's very generous BB, but I have already ordered a custom brass .780 round ball mold, and it will be delivered shortly. Also, I absolutely have my heart set on round ball loads.
    However, I would be very I interested to know what your load is, and how you arrived at it.
    My shotgun is a modern Zabala SXS. This is an exceedingly strong action being of the double locked style (has catches both above and below). It's certainly not a Damascus gun, and while I don't intend to run the heaviest loads I can find in it, I'm not going to baby it either.
    Precision in the wrong place is only a placebo.

  5. #5
    Boolit Grand Master
    Mk42gunner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Butler, MO
    Posts
    9,020
    I'm guessing here, but it seems to me that a 10 ga RB will be awfully light when compared to a "normal" payload in a 3½" 10 ga shotload, even if you factor in the weight of a couple of inches of fiber wads.

    One thing I have read of when loading RB in the smaller gauges at least is to use a 3/8" hole punch to make a donut that the ball sits in to help center it. In a 10 gauge, maybe a ½" hole punch would be better?

    Roll or folded crimp?

    Maybe look at Revolutionary War or British websites, 10 gauge and Brown Bess seem pretty close to me.

    Robert

  6. #6
    Boolit Grand Master

    MBTcustom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    6,994
    As usual you are correct. The round ball weighs 700 grains (obviously, 7000 divided by 10) which is about 1.6oz (again, 16oz divided by ten).

    That's a light load alright. Not only is it light for the ten gauge, but the other problem is that being a solid ball it's more compact than a 1.6oz payload of shot.

    What I'm after here is a fast moving ball instead of a relatively slow moving payload of shot. Working up a powder load in and of itself doesn't bother me (I do that all the time with wildcat rifles) but I cant help worrying that the wad column will have more effect on the load than just it's weight. (we don't load a wad column in a 45-70 because it can ring the chamber.)

    I will be right up front when I say I do not know all the ins and out of this. I have a good handle on everything else, but that wad column is an unknown. I'm getting clues from old reloading manuals (back when they tried to explain WHY things work instead of just telling you to follow the published data no matter what) but in this gauge, the pickings are slim to say the least.
    If I could find some slug loads, I could observe the way they operate the wad column and powder selection and get a pretty good idea I think, but i'm not having much luck.
    If I could use a 1/8 over powder card, then three 3/8 fiber wads (instead of the usual use of only two) I'm in like flynn, but I don't know if that's a good idea or not.

    I don't want to cut the shells down to 2 7/8" because that will force the ball to jump to the forcing cone. I want to stick to the standard 3 1/2" shells.

    1.6-2.0cc cream of wheat will be used to support the ball as that worked out quite well in the 12 gauge.

    All I have are roll crimped shells at the moment, but I am looking into folded shells as I think they are better for this application. I could be wrong about this, but I feel that using an over shot card on top of the ball is asking for trouble, and shooting the ball through the roll crimp without the over shot card doesn't seem like a good idea either. Thus, I think I need folded cases, or I need to seal the ball in place with other means like hot glue, or water glass etc etc etc.

    Seems like revolutionary war and brown bess sites would focus predominately on black powder loads and I want clean smokeless loads.
    Last edited by MBTcustom; 12-10-2015 at 06:43 PM.
    Precision in the wrong place is only a placebo.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    New Mexico
    Posts
    710
    I load 12 & 20 GA round balls and build up the column with cow or used coffee grounds. You could do the same if so inclined. That's what I would do if I had a 10 ga.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master

    Hogtamer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    East central GA, Appling near Augusta
    Posts
    3,307
    A few observations from all manner of 12 ga solid loads: 1) A good gas seal is imperative. There is none better than BPI x12x and I think it's available in 10 ga. 2) Use Steel powder. Faster powders create more setback at igniton making it tough on components. Steel creates more of a "push" and components perform like they're supposed. It also takes up more room in the hull reducing need for as much stacking of components. Helps a bit with recoil too. Eyeballing some data looks like you could move that 1 1/2 oz ball about 1300 fps or better. Ouch on both ends.
    "My main ambition in life is to be on the devil's most wanted list."
    Leonard Ravenhill

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Southern Illinois
    Posts
    665
    The Federal factory slugs I have are 1 + 3/4 ounces. We shot them in a Browning 10 Ga. pump. Tim I have a question. Can I lengthen the forcing cone on a factory berretta barrel ? I didn't know if its the same as the "Shot" barrel materials. I can't remember the name of what they called the shot barrel steel.

  10. #10
    Boolit Grand Master

    MBTcustom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    6,994
    Quote Originally Posted by Hogtamer View Post
    A few observations from all manner of 12 ga solid loads: 1) A good gas seal is imperative. There is none better than BPI x12x and I think it's available in 10 ga. 2) Use Steel powder. Faster powders create more setback at igniton making it tough on components. Steel creates more of a "push" and components perform like they're supposed. It also takes up more room in the hull reducing need for as much stacking of components. Helps a bit with recoil too. Eyeballing some data looks like you could move that 1 1/2 oz ball about 1300 fps or better. Ouch on both ends.
    That's a heck of a post. Thanks for the recommendations!
    Precision in the wrong place is only a placebo.

  11. #11
    Boolit Grand Master

    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Castlegar, B.C., Canada
    Posts
    7,933
    I will be following Tim's adventure here because I bought a pair of guns for $150.00 about 3 years ago one being a very nice Lee Enfield No. 4 MK 2 and one being a rather beat up but possibly serviceable W. C. Scott & Son 10 ga. Damascus barreled shotgun that is 1880's vintage. It was obviously a beautiful gun in its day but has been badly abused and poorly repaired.

    The bores are not good but not horrible, the outside of the barrels are in pretty decent shape but the left lock is damaged and has an after market hammer that doesn't fit very well and the stock was broken then repaired with a screw! No I haven't shot it.

    I doubt it has any collector value but it may be made to shoot again with shortened barrels and some properly applied TLC. My thought was a BP 10 ga. slug gun for round balls... just like Tim is doing except with that new fangled smokeless stuff.

    I was actually thinking of using my 0.735" round balls in 10 ga. shotcups but I am open to suggestions and will be watching what is posted here for sure.

    Have at 'er Tim I suck up whatever good info is deposited here!

    Longbow

  12. #12
    Boolit Grand Master

    MBTcustom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    6,994
    Longbow, you can clean up those barrels with what I call a Barlow knife scraper. It's made by taking a piece of dowel several inches long, slitting it, and making a blade for it that looks just like the blade in a Barlow knife. Pin the blade in place on the rear, and install a screw in the front to adjust the height of the blade (screw contacts the underside of the point). Attach this scraper head to a steel rod that is long enough to reach through your barrels and drive it with a cordless drill. It will scrape the insides of the barrels very nicely and you can precisely adjust it with the screw so you take out the bare minimum. This is an old trick for scraping in chokes on old doubles by removing material from the inside of the barrel except for the last 2 inches or so. You can read about it in Brownell's Gunsmithing Kinks I book on page 152-156.
    Attachment 155542


    I made an order from BPI. I got X10X gas seals, 3/8" fiber wads, and Cheddite hulls. That, and cream of wheat should give me the options I need to build these loads.

    Some information I gleaned from a conversation with Larry Gibson last night made me realise why adherence to published data is insisted on so incessantly, and no procedure for building loads is published.

    Recently, I was thinking of putting a fiber filler in by 45-70 loads instead of dacron, and I abandoned the idea because I read somewhere that it is possible to ring the chamber using this method.
    This has bothered me quite a bit, because I thought, if it can damage a 45-70, then why in the world is it acceptable practice for loading shotgun shells? I assumed that there must be something very hard to predict and measure which would explain the phobia of stacking up custom loads. Thus, I assumed that if I use too many wads, or the wrong combination or style, I could damage the gun.
    Turns out I was over thinking it.

    The critical thing about building a shotshell load is that there is no air gap in the powder area, or the payload. Whatever is put together must be stacked tightly top to bottom so that it all moves as one unit and does not become separated, or worse, suddenly smashed together inside the barrel (which would act just like a bore obstruction on the fly).
    Obviously, if this is the objective, a change in hull, wad, or payload screws up this perfect scenario. The published loads are simply a combination of powder, wad column and payload that coincidentally stacks up to the perfect component height within a shell of a certain internal capacity so that when the crimp is applied, everything is held not too loose and not too tight.

    So now that I know what the rules are, I can proceed with developing a load for this shotgun. I will simply use COW to make up the difference in column height as I work up the powder charges (with the understanding that this adds weight to the column and effects pressure slightly.

    Other things I have found out about building loads is that the crimp strength effects powder burn and pressure (yeah, we know this from loading magnum pistol cartridges.) Nothing new here, except that when dealing with shotgun shells, there is much MUCH more flexibility to jack with the crimp strength. For instance, if I seat the ball in the hulls, and merely run a bead of water glass or hot melt around the ball, that will have less resistance than an old folded crimp, and a new folded crimp will have more resistance than that, and a roll crimp will have more resistance that the new folded crimp. That seems pretty straight forward to me.

    Another thing that I believe I am reading correctly is that the various 209 primers have great variance in power, so on a custom load, one cannot be substituted for another without a new load workup.

    Based on this extremely hard to gather information, I have formulated a logical plan for developing new loads for this (or any other) shotgun.

    1. I will cheat and observe known published loads to determine a choice of powder and a charge of that powder.

    2. I will observe what primers seem to be the easiest for me to obtain locally, pick one, and stick to that specific primer, with the understanding that the loads will be completely worked up again if I make a change. .

    3. I have ordered Chedite hulls from BPI, so I will use those specific hulls for my load development, with the understanding that the loads will be completely worked up again if I make a change.

    4. The powder charge will be reduced to a level that seems completely safe, and poured in the hulls. The powder level (hereafter referred to as the component level) will be carefully measured from the mouth of the hull and recorded.

    5. I will seat a BPI gas seal over the powder and measure exactly how much this raised the component level above the previous measurement. This will be recorded.

    6. Math will be used to determine how many fiber wads, and what charge of COW is needed to raise the ball to an acceptable height in the hull. Experiments will be run till it becomes exactly right, at which point the hull will be carefully disassembled and the COW will be measured and recorded both in grains by weight and CCs.

    7. First loads will be assembled and fired over a chronograph to get an idea of where I am at.

    8. Adjustments will be made using steps 1-7 and repeated till I feel I am satisfied with the performance.


    That is the plan.

    Obviously, what I am doing is inherently dangerous and I am taking great risk by erring from published data. If anyone decides to attempt a similar project, do your own research and do not think this is an instruction for you to follow. I am merely documenting my journey for the literary enjoyment of other people. In other words, even if I am successful, do not try this yourself.
    Last edited by MBTcustom; 12-13-2015 at 06:31 PM.
    Precision in the wrong place is only a placebo.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master Cap'n Morgan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    1,458
    Tim, a few thoughts on your project:

    First, with a rather light load like the one you're planning, DON'T start too low if using slower powders when working up a load (like Steel or Blue Dot). If you experience a partial "bloober" the blast from the primer could create a wad/ball separation due to the higher inertia in the ball. If the powder then ignites, bad things could happen. I put a bulge in a barrel using too light a load of Steel behind a slug that lodged temporarily in the choke.

    I have found that faster powders, like Red or Green Dot, tends to give more uniform velocities and much less dependency on the crimp to ensure good ignition. Also, you can't load "too light" with the faster powders. As a drawback you'll have to settle for less velocity and the fast powders are known to raise pressure fast (spike) when loaded too hot.

    As you already noticed, an over shot card is a really bad idea. W. W. Greener warned that it would ruin a barrel if wedged between the ball and bore.

    Don't be afraid to cut down the shells. I use nothing but once-fired 2-3/4 shells trimmed to 2-1/2 for my Brenneke clone and they shoots great - even in my 3-1/2 chambered semi-auto.

    Like Hogtamer suggested use a BPI x10x plastic seal on top of the powder. Just replacing a 5/16 wad with a x12x seal gave me 70 FPS more velocity from a rather mild slug load.

    You could try making your own "shaped wads" from paper mache. I've seen some of your projects and this should be a piece of cake for you. All you need is a newspaper, some water, and a simple mold based on a piece of pipe with a top & bottom plunger. The top of the wad should be shaped to fit the ball. Stuff the pipe with a measured amount of paper mache - plug the ends and give it a good squeeze in a vice (or loading press) After a couple of hours the wad have dried (and shrunk - expect 5% or so shrinkage) enough to push it from the mold and leave to dry completely. If the wad works as expected you can always make a multi-mold to speed things up.

    Good luck with the project.
    Cap'n Morgan

  14. #14
    Boolit Grand Master

    MBTcustom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    6,994
    More excellent information. Coming from you, I expect nothing less.
    I do want to try Steel, but I'm going to start with 4756. Seems like just a great powder for this application and I have some on hand, as well as lots of 10 gauge data using that powder.
    Precision in the wrong place is only a placebo.

  15. #15
    Banned

    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    1,481
    If it's a pure lead ball then the faster powders aren't good because their sudden shock/thrust can swage the ball some and it won't be as accurate. Slower powders have a more gentler push.

  16. #16
    Boolit Buddy StolzerandSons's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Washington, KS, u.S.A.
    Posts
    319
    Some vintage loads to give a starting point, these are all black powder so they may not be useful to you but here goes.

    W.W. Greener The Gun and it's Development:
    10(.775) Bore - 273grs FFg, 670gr ball, 1600fps

    John Taylor's African Rifles and Cartridges
    10(.780) Bore - 220grs FFg, 1250gr Bullet, 1500fps

    Cartridges of the World:
    10 Bore - 136grs, 700gr ball, 1300fps

    Print from a Holland and Holland add...smoothbore jungle gun:
    10(.775) Bore - 5 drams black powder, 698gr Ball, 1316fps

    Now from my personal experience, I like to use wool felt for wad column, I buy it in 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4 inch thickness from McMaster-Carr and I use dry felt against the powder but a lubed felt wad(usually 1/2") against the ball, Brass cases from RMC, Federal primers and a very slight crimp to hold the ball in side the case. When I am putting the wadding in I use a wood dowel slightly smaller than case inside diameter and a bathroom scale to compress the column on the powder to 50 pounds. Usually I use Goex FFg black Powder and the charge depends more on accuracy and regulation that velocity.

    I make manual reloading tools for bore rifles/shotguns up to 2 Bore:


    You can go to this link and scroll down about 1/3 of the way and see how they work:
    http://stolzergunsmithing.webs.com/2borejonespage5.htm

    I also make custom wadding cutters for bore rifles:

    Use it by hand or take the "T" off and put it in a 1/2" drill press to speed things up.

    Hope that helps,

    Colin
    The Bill of Rights - Void were prohibited by law.
    Soap Box, Ballot Box, Jury Box, Ammo Box. Which one of these is still working properly?
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyR...83SK1hk2GT-Jqg

  17. #17
    Boolit Buddy StolzerandSons's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Washington, KS, u.S.A.
    Posts
    319
    Found some more info.

    British Bore Rifles by Cal Pappas
    Page 313 Rob Seymours 10 Bore Tolley Double

    Brass 2-5/8", Federal 209A, Fiber Wads, Wonder Lube, 700gr ball

    Blue Dot 40grs - 1160fps
    Blue Dot 45grs - 1320fps
    Blue Dot 50grs - 1423fps
    Fg 170grs - 1116fps
    FFg 130grs - 1201fps
    FFg 138grs - 1285fps
    Pyrodex 130 ctg - 1170fps
    Pyrodex 170 ctg - 1310fps
    Swiss 120grs - 1330

    Hope that helps,

    Colin
    The Bill of Rights - Void were prohibited by law.
    Soap Box, Ballot Box, Jury Box, Ammo Box. Which one of these is still working properly?
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyR...83SK1hk2GT-Jqg

  18. #18
    Boolit Grand Master

    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Castlegar, B.C., Canada
    Posts
    7,933
    Do you know if the bore rifles and smoothbore jungle gun have beefier barrels than a 10 ga. shotgun? Or are they made to take same pressures?

    It seems like 200+ grains 0f BP is a hefty load for a 10 ga. shotgun especially under a 1250 gr. slug.

    I would really like to get my old 10 ga. up and running but being Damascus barreled it will be BP or at least BP equivalent loads.

    Longbow

  19. #19
    Boolit Grand Master

    MBTcustom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    6,994
    I finally got a chance to take the 10 gauge out and sample this "epic recoil" everybody says is enough to lay a grown man on his back. My daughter was good enough to take this picture at the instant of recoil:
    Attachment 155462

    Attachment 155464

    I shot two boxes of 1976 vintage loads and two old paper hull W-W shells I had laying around (oddly, the paper WW shells produced slightly more recoil). Recoil was noticeable, but far from the stoutest thing I have ever shot.
    Attachment 155463
    You definitely know you're making something move when you shoot, but I'm sitting here fully able to type three hours later, and my shoulder doesn't hurt when I push on it (I also ran through 20 rounds of full house 35 Whelen loads from a 7lb rifle).
    Conclusion: 10 gauge recoil = nothing to write home about. Very easy to work with.
    (that in blue is the biggest load of horse hockey I ever posted here. The next day, I had a splitting headache, and I hurt from my neck, all the way down to my elbow. I realized just how physically assaulted I had been. Matter of fact, I'm still feeling it. I felt I should edit to add, and repent in dust and ashes. Nothing I have ever shot has had this much effect on me. It was like a 10 gauge hangover.)

    I wanted to make sure this gun would take care of what I need it to, so I ran it hard and fast. Shot an entire box as fast as I could throw them in there and send them downrange. The object was to get the barrels good and hot and see if they delaminated or if the action would get loose etc etc. The gun performed with excellent form and never missed a lick. If something is going to cause a failure, it's going to have to be much more powerful than these Remington Express Magnum 2oz loads.
    Seems the right firing pin strikes slightly weaker than the left, but it never failed to set off the primer it was striking. Other than that, everything looks good.

    Since the gun appears to be safe and sound, I will proceed with my plan outline.
    Last edited by MBTcustom; 12-15-2015 at 12:57 AM.
    Precision in the wrong place is only a placebo.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master

    Hogtamer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    East central GA, Appling near Augusta
    Posts
    3,307
    Love that price!
    "My main ambition in life is to be on the devil's most wanted list."
    Leonard Ravenhill

Page 1 of 8 12345678 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check