.223 loads.....with j words

[vzerone]

Just because it's a varmint bullets doesn't mean it shouldn't work like a big game hunting bullet. That is penetrate, get to the vitals, then explode (this part not like the big game bullet you want that to expand and not explode) and do the job. From my experience with the V-MAX on the larger critters such as the coyote it didn't penetrate enough or exploded too early. Coyotes are a tenacious critter for sure. As to the head shots, well you don't always have that opportunity.

[newton]

I can see a headshot being risky in a lot of situations, but at the same time so is an animal running 200 yards or more - depending on where you hunt. I don't take iffy shots no matter what I am shooting, or caliber I'm shooting, but I have to say with this gun I am feeling pretty confident - more so than with a lot of other guns I've shot - even though I have not shot it that much.

I went by one of the LGS today, they had H335 in stock, but I could not bring myself to get it right now. So close to Christmas funds are tight, so I need to go with something I know works. But at least it is sitting on shelves again. They had more powder there than I have seen in close to 3 years.

I think I will play around with some different powders this spring, but for now I'll stick with what looks to be giving me better than I hoped for. I wish I could run those 25.5 grain loads over the chronograph tonight, but it will have to wait till tomorrow. I'll be surprised if they are not 3200+. They were hitting just below where the factory round hit. One thing I found interesting is the way they shot left with the lower velocities. I had the same thing happen when testing loads for the 243 and 308.

I am not sure what bullet stability calculator you use Larry, but I looked at the one Berger has online. Depending on whether you input .713" or .715", the calculator says it is "marginally" stable at anything below 3200 fps. I don't know how much stability is an issue at 100 yards though, but it is interesting nonetheless.

Here is the chrony results I did get, even though I am not sure how much faith to put into them with the dimming light. I am not sure how much a difference in light effects chronographs, or if they are consistent up to a point and then thats why they throw an error code?

4320 - average velocities

24 - 2670fps
24.5 - 2750fps
25 - 2840fps
25.5 - 2920fps
26 - 3040fps


4895 - only got a few readings, only got one with 24.5 grains truth be told, but it started showing numbers again with the 25 grain loads. Not sure how much stock to put into them though, I think they were going faster than that, and the POI seems to say the same.

24 - 2770fps
24.5 - 2925fps
25 - 2990fps

[GabbyM]

The Sierra Blitz line is in my experience, and I believe as advertised, more explosive than the Hornady V-Max or SX. I think the SX and V-Max are similar. Then the Sierra Varminter line similar to them. Nosler BT’s blow up faster than V-Max. Nosler BT’s are close to the Blitz. When Nosler first came out with there BT's there was slow motion video of the bullet expanding before hide penetration. Which is what it and the BK's seam to do. Great prairie dog bullets.I wore out my first 243 Win barrel pushing 55gr BT's over 4,000 fps. Only took six days of shooting over two trips.

Vzerone: I’d not go so far to not use a V-Max to hunt coyotes over any penetration concerns. Thousnads used every year. Then as Larry states. Fragmentation can work in your favor. I have at least a thousand of the 53gr V-Max left and have confidence. But when in search of information, get on the internet. Here is a you tube video I found with ballistic gell test of 53gr V-Max. That jelly looks pretty dead to me. I’ve never heard any complaints on V-Max performance in a coyote. Now the Sierra Blitz bullets is different. Much more explosive in either the lead soft point of green plastic tip. But Sierra makes the excellent Varminter bullets in weights up to the 60 grain HP. Then the 55 and 65 grain Game-Kings. Just take your pick.

In my 222. I’ve been shooting up whatever left over out of Favor bullets I had around here. If I were in market for some coyote J bullets for the 222. I’d decide between 50 or 55grain Sierra flat base soft nose Varminter bullets. I favor Sierra bullets.

Here is a you tube video I found. Ballistic jell.
53-v-max
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCqmclsRQmM

[GabbyM]

Head shot on a coyote is something I've never even contemplated. They are a very animated animal that never sits still. It's rare to take a shot where the cross hairs were even over the animals body.

[5Shot]

H335 is my favorite for 223, but I do use heavier bullets. If you get a chance to try it, I think you will like it.

[vzerone]

I like the Winchester 748 better then H335. I'm talking about the real Winchester made 748...the old stuff. That 748 we have today is not the same as it use to be. In fact a lot of powders aren't the same anymore today.

I agree with Gabby that coyotes are too animated for head shots. BTW Gabby that coyote I shot was a rather large one and it was a broadside shot right behind the shoulder. The yote went about a 1 mile. I found a blood spray trailing the blood trail that looked like it was sprayed out of a Windex bottle. It went for about 50 yards and stopped. I blew his lungs up and he was spraying the blood out of his nostrils. When I found him it was difficult to find the entrance hole, but I did and right were I was aiming. No exit hole of course and nothing looked unusual in the body area the shot was in. In my opinion it's too explosive a bullet for large coyote and dogs up. BTW it was the heavier V-MAX too!!!

[Larry Gibson]

My favorite coyote shot is them sitting down with their back to me......between the shoulder blades. Don't get that often but it sure is nice when it happens. I don't try head shots on 'em either.....too much fur and hair around the heart/lung area let alone all the air around the head.

GabbyM

Unless they've changed The older Sierra 50 gr "Blitz" bullets were very much like the 50 gr Hornady SX's. The 55 gr SXs are just as explosive. I used to shoot a lot of small ground squirrels that would sit in a row on there mounds. Sitting, even with a full stomach, they are only 1 1/2 +/-" thick. I would line up 3 - 5 of them and see how many I could take out with one shot. That involved actual "hunting" of a sorts as I had to "stalk" around a bit to line up the shot. Under 200 yards I seldom killed more than 2. The 3rd would be stunned but would recover but had a mess to clean off himself. The 4th and 5th would scurry around, stop and look at the 3rd with a "what the heck was that!" expression.......Past 200 yards I could get 3 of them but never more than that. The 50 gr SX and Blitzes did pretty much the same. I settled on the 55 SXs because they seemed a bit more effective on rock chucks and coyotes past 200 yards.

I've found the current Sierra Blitz King line to be similar to V-Max's and other plastic tipped varmint bullets. They are not near as explosive as the original Sierra Blitz's or the Hornady SXs. n gas guns such as ARs and Mini 14s, et all the noses of the SPs get beat up in the magazines in short order so I quit using the SXs there. Also in some 9" twists the SXs and original Blitz's do not hold together if the muzzle velocity is much above 2800- 2900 fps. I found the Speer 52 gr HP to be an excellent bullet for the gas guns. I load it over the same 26.5 gr H335 and accuracy is always excellent. It also is as explosive as the SX/Blitz's on varmints. It holds together with that load very well out of my 9" twist .223s but in any 8" or faster twists it also won't hold together. I thin the reason many 40 - 55 gr .224 varmint bullets are not as explosive these days, especially at longer ranges, is because of the faster twist barrels on the .223s and 22-250s. The bullets have to have a stronger jacket to hold up under the RPM of the faster twists.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Forgot to mention in an earlier post. I also took the Oregon police state sniper rifle championship back in the '70s with that M700V and the 55 gr SX/26.5 gr H335 load. We shot from 100 to 500 yards.

Larry Gibson

[newton]

Had to throw in that you won a championship with it huh. Lol

i want to try it, and had I just tried 4320 i would be game for another powder. Just hard to disregard the accuracy the 4895 produced unless I knew for sure that the 335 would do the same. I like the idea of using a ball powder for ease of metering, but I don't do progressive, and only load 50 at a time.

If there was a hands down reason to choose it over 4895 it would make things easy. I know your not trying to convince me to disregard 4895, but so much talk about 335 makes it hard for me to not want to try it. I can be indecisive like this sometimes. Wish I wasn't. I just am going to need more powder sooner than later and I'll have to decide for sure then. Think I have enough 4895 for 50-75 more rounds. I just don't like having powder sit around after finding out it doesn't work like I want.

[newton]

One thing I noticed about 335 is it can be finicky with some primers. Any truth to this? I am using sellior and belliot right now. Won't need new primers for a while.

[GabbyM]

I like the Winchester 748 better then H335. I'm talking about the real Winchester made 748...the old stuff. That 748 we have today is not the same as it use to be. In fact a lot of powders aren't the same anymore today.

I agree with Gabby that coyotes are too animated for head shots. BTW Gabby that coyote I shot was a rather large one and it was a broadside shot right behind the shoulder. The yote went about a 1 mile. I found a blood spray trailing the blood trail that looked like it was sprayed out of a Windex bottle. It went for about 50 yards and stopped. I blew his lungs up and he was spraying the blood out of his nostrils. When I found him it was difficult to find the entrance hole, but I did and right were I was aiming. No exit hole of course and nothing looked unusual in the body area the shot was in. In my opinion it's too explosive a bullet for large coyote and dogs up. BTW it was the heavier V-MAX too!!!

Sounds like bullet just blew up one lung and left him with his spare. I think that's an unusual result as I don't hear it much. Thing about exploding bullets is you never know for sure what will happen. One mile for a coyote is about ninety seconds right. An awful lot of coyote go down DRT to the V-Max every year.

[vzerone]

That's a pretty good assumption Gabby, I hadn't thought about one lung surviving and it sure explains how far he went.

[GabbyM]

GabbyM

Unless they've changed The older Sierra 50 gr "Blitz" bullets were very much like the 50 gr Hornady SX's.
Larry Gibson

Hope they have not messed with them just to accommodate. All I'd of had would be the old ones from late eighties and early 1990's. I was guessing based on what I observed on prairie dogs. Shot some old SX 55 grain first year out with my 223. Shot the Sierra the same day. Nosler BT's in 50 grain is what was really making mist. Then the next year Sierra came out with the plastic tipped BK's and I was very happy with them. These 55 SBT-GK soft points have a nice high B.C. They shoot good in my old SP-1 with 12 twist. I think the main thing is I just get out in this cold and place a bullet into the target.

This is a copy past right from the Sierra web page on the 50 grain Blitz. Note it clearly states 1:12 and 1:14" twist with max velocity of 3600 fps. Blitz-Kings are able to stand tighter twist.

.22 Caliber (.224) Medium Velocity 50 gr. Spitzer Blitz

If you shoot a rifle in 222 Remington or 223 Remington, this may be the ideal varmint bullet for you. This bullet is designed for the velocity levels typical of these two popular rifle cartridges to give maximum terminal performance. It can often give accuracy rivaling even our famous MatchKings. The sleek Sierra Spitzer point shape assures downrange performance. Designed for total frangibility upon impact, this lightly jacketed bullet should be used only in "conventional" twist rate barrels (1x12" or 1x14"). Use in fast twist rate barrels can result in bullet disintegration in mid-air!

Designed for velocities below 3600 FPS, thin-jacketed and highly explosive, this can be one of the bullets for all 22 caliber centerfire handguns chambering medium-to-large-capacity cartridges for varmint hunting applications. Offering good expansion characteristics at all normal ranges with traditional Sierra match grade accuracy, this bullet may be an excellent choice for all but the smallest of the 22 centerfire cartridges. The Sierra Spitzer shape results in a high ballistic coefficient for flat trajectory, high energy retention downrange, and low sensitivity to crosswinds and vertical winds. The enhanced expansion characteristics on small animals make the Blitz the choice of knowledgeable handgunners the world over.

The #1340 was introduced in 1978.

[newton]

We don't have any prairie dogs, but we do have too many squirrels. That bullet sounds interesting. I've seen videos of the mist effect, might just have to try them on our vermin.

[Wolfer]

I've seen the gray puff of smoke a few yards down range many times with Sierra blitz in a 9 " twist.
I found that if I dropped the velocity to about 2800 I could hit stuff with 9 out of ten or better. At 3000' or above only about half made it to the target.
I could run them full bore in my 2 rem 223s with 12" twist.

I had proven this to myself many times but never understood why until the first time I read about the RPM threshold.

You shoot a prairie dog with a Sierra blitz and the finest taxidermist in the world can't put it back together.

[vzerone]

We don't have any prairie dogs, but we do have too many squirrels. That bullet sounds interesting. I've seen videos of the mist effect, might just have to try them on our vermin.

Don't you like eating squirrel or are you just mentioning you have a lot of them and that you're not going to disintegrate them with explosive Blitz bullets?

[dualsport]

Interesting stuff. Two things, one is those of you who haven't got a copy of Wolfe Publishings' "Propellant Profiles" should find a copy. Everything you ever wanted to know about most all the powders. Specs, history, uses, lots of loads. Good reading. Taken from Handloader Magazine over several decades. Second, speaking of jwords, opinions on Midsouth's 'Varmint Extreme' line?

[GabbyM]

One thing I noticed about 335 is it can be finicky with some primers. Any truth to this? I am using sellior and belliot right now. Won't need new primers for a while.

I think it is hard to light. Others say no. Had less than desirable E.S. and dirty burn when using Federal GM205M primers. My favorite for fast and medium rate stick powders. Fed standard SR primers are known to be the mildest standard primer. Some get in to issues from purchase of Remington 6 1/2 primers for 223 size cases. Those primers were made for the little 22 CF's of the early 20th century. Like the Hornet and Bee. 6 1/2 is mild like a pistol primer with a hard cup. Remington came out with the 7 1/2 primer along with it's 222 Rem. Remington does not call the 7 1/2 a magnum primer but it is hotter with higher brisance than some called magnum. I've run a lot of CCI sr magnum and #41 primers and had nothing but good results. I still use the Federals in my bolt gun with Benchmark powder.
Used Rem 7 1/2 to light off Ramshot TAC and that worked well. Bought 5,000 Wolf primers back when they were real cheap. Not impressed with them in any way. E.S. is higher than with any American primer and I've had about three duds getting half way through them. I use them for cast bullet loads in the 222 now. Since my life probably won't count on it nor any accuracy issue show itself at the short ranges I shoot cast at. . European primers like S&B or Wolf use a different primer compound. It burns at a lower brisance or heat but for a longer duration of time. Thus it is rational to say results will vary. I've no idea how well S&B's will set off H-335. I left H-335 behind some years ago. Even with the Less effective Federal 205's I still made a few thousand prairie dog rounds and used them at around 400 yards. So it's not like they didn't shoot at all. Last winter I loaded the last of that 8lb jug with 800 rounds of 55r FMJ and gave them to my daughter for blasting ammo. Trying to reduce the number of loads I have in inventory. If I were looking for a ball powder right now I'd pick one of the Alliant Power Pro line. It's a newer technology powder made by General Dynamics in Florida. Supposed to be easier to light. Less fowling and burns cooler. Reports I've read is it leaves a powdery residue that does not keep building up in the bore. Never personally used any. What I have purchased the last ten years. H-Benchmark for 53gr SMK's. Alliant AR-Comp to replace what I used to do with H-Varget. Accurate Arms LT-32. For the 222 and 55 and under bullets in the gas guns. Not played with the LT-32 yet. In General it all shoots similar until I load it in my heavy bolt gun with 24x scope then shoot it at least 200 yards out. Was sold on the Hodgdon Extreme stick powders years ago for there ability to be consistent. Even when you leave a round lay in a hot chamber for a while. Never hand much Temperature issue in the 223 with H-335. But in my 243's with WW-760 It was big. Mostly just loads worked up in winter would be really hot when I took them out in eighty degree weather. Shoots great though and I still have a bunch of WW760.

[newton]

Not sure where else to post this, but thought you all might be interested, and I'm curious if others have seen this.

I sorted out another 50 new cases to get ready for some more loads. They are FC American Eagle, black bag sold in Cabelas.

I got together 50 that were +- .3 grains of each other, just to see if it makes a difference. Then I started to de-burr the flash hole. What I quickly realized is there was no burr present. A quick look into the case looked as if there was one there, but when I took a sharp object and drug it across I could not feel anything.

So then I looked closer and realized that they had been, what looks like, factory de-burred. I looked closer and could see where the punched metal had been ground off(for lack of a better word). I could also see three triangle impressions, but I am not sure if this has anything to do with the de-burring or just case manufacturing.

Anyone see this before? I'll have to clean some of the other 223 cases I have in order to see if they have the same thing, but I have not seen it on any other brand/caliber of brass I have.



I've never de-burred cases before, never was looking to get the tightest groups possible. But I wanted to try with this gun and about went out and bought a tool for it, but decided to just make my own instead. Glad I saved my money.

[newton]

Don't you like eating squirrel or are you just mentioning you have a lot of them and that you're not going to disintegrate them with explosive Blitz bullets?

I do, but some squirrel is about as appetizing as prairie dogs. Around my place they are a nuisance animal. They get into cars, houses, workshops, etc. Chew things up and such. I don't just go out and kill them for the fun of it though. My hogs enjoy eating whatever I harvest.

Would head shots on them also destroy their bodies with those blitz bullets?