.223 loads.....with j words

[Wolfer]

Back in our praire dog hunting days I loaded for 5 different 223s. 3 of them were Savage with 9" twist. 2 rem with 12" twist. I now have 14 twist on one of mine.

I found its pretty difficult to find a bad load in 223 as long as suitable bullets are used.
Since I bulk loaded on a single stage press I soon quit the extruded powders. Powders such as H335, BLC2, AA 2200, Ramshot exterminator etc all worked well and could push 50/55 gr to 3000 or above very easily and safely.

My most favorite bullet is Sierra's 55 BTSP. This is one of their game king line and nearly always exits with a nickel sized hole. The exit hole out of the back of a deers head looks just like the one out of a coyotes rib cage. I've killed a truck load of coyotes with this bullet. Alas it will not stabilize in the 14 twist I generally use so I shoot the 50 gr V max. It too is deadly on coyotes but rarely exits even on broadside shots.

Roughly 25 gr of any suitable powder behind any suitable bullet (50/55 gr)will throw 3/4-1" groups from a bolt gun so often as to become boring. This is one of those inherently accurate cartridges that it's hard to go wrong on.

[dualsport]

RE post #2; Larry, elk? I don't doubt it at all, just curious about the elk load/hunt.

[Larry Gibson]

RE post #2; Larry, elk? I don't doubt it at all, just curious about the elk load/hunt.

My operative word in that post was "killed". While some of the mentioned were "hunted" many were killed. For example when sitting/laying on a hill shooting squirrels or PDs I don't consider that as "hunting". It is shooting and/or killing to me. Just explaining is all here. Not meaning to ruffle any feathers, it's just how I look at it. With regards to the elk I was a LEO in NE Oregon for a number of years and part of that was putting down injured animals (game and domestic) when they were found or reported. Most of the injured game animals were from vehicle collisions or during and after the deer and elk hunting seasons. I had my own LE Patrol vehicle and the Sheriff was liberal in that I was allowed to carry and use what I wanted for such as long as I did the deed expeditiously. I used the M700 as stated on a couple of occasions but mostly carried my M70 XTR (.223 Rem with 12" twist) in the patrol vehicle for coyote control as the Sheriff had promised the cattlemen's association we would shoot coyote's on sight. I put down several injured elk with it also. I also carried other rifles and handguns with various loads to "test" if the occasion arose.

The load for the .223 I killed everything was the afore mentioned Hornady 55 gr SX over 26.5 gr H335 out of both the M700V and the M70 XTR. A couple were behind the ear shots because the circumstance did not allow any other shot. The idea being to absolutely drop the elk in place. On several occasions I tried other shots, of different angles into the heart lung area. All were effective. I found that placing the 55 gr SX just behind the leg angling forward into the heart resulted in shrapnel shredded heart and lungs with just a bit, maybe, of jacket material sticking into the inside of the offside rib cage. The elk would hunch up at the shot (range was usually 50 - 100 yards) and then stagger anywhere from 25 - 50+ yards and then lay down and die rather quickly. There was next to no meat damage done.

Larry Gibson

[marshall623]

20.5 gr. Of IMR4198 under a 55gr. Sierra gets it done in my super 14 contender.

[newton]

Worked on the trigger today. Thanks again for that link. Didn't have to mess at all with the third screw to get a nice clean pull. I ran it through the paces with a dummy round, even took a rubber mallet to it. Looks good.

Made two load spans with H4895 and IMR4320. 24-26 on IMR, and 24-25.5 on 4895. Sounds like I might have a hard time deciding which one out of them all will be the best. Guess I'll have to use calipers to measure instead of tape measure.

Im gonna run the factory load over the chrony too. They shot pretty sweet so I'm curious what speed their going. It obviously stabilizes the 55 grain very well.

[toallmy]

I have been keeping an eye on this thread , I am getting ready to start on working up a load for my first 223 as well . A bit overwhelmed by the choice of j bullets , but choose one to start with worked out the over all length and working up a powder ladder just waiting on the glass.

[newton]

I did test the throat length of my gun, but did not spend a whole lot of time with it. It shot so well with the factory ammo, which came in under the 2.200" of normal OAL with 55 grain, that I figured I would stick with that number. It did measure to around 2.230" though, but once the cartridge came out at 2.250". I have to wonder if OAL would really matter with this round, until you start trying to get into the lands and such.

I'll be saving up for the next step up in glass myself. I have always just got what I could afford, and honestly what was cheapest but decent magnification. This gun had decent glass, but no where near the quality it should have.

I started thinking last night and now am going to have to start digging to find out what makes this round inherently accurate. I am sure you can make/shoot some loads that would perform horrible, but I have read in more than one spot that the .223 shoots very well with a variety of loads.

[GabbyM]

Here is an article at Berger Bullets website that I found very informative. On Bullet stability. http://bergerbullets.com/images/arti...wist_Rates.pdf

Quotes some work by Sierra on effects of stability upon B.C.

[vzerone]

Here is an article at Berger Bullets website that I found very informative. On Bullet stability. http://bergerbullets.com/images/arti...wist_Rates.pdf

Quotes some work by Sierra on effects of stability upon B.C.

Gabby thanks for putting that up. It was very interesting indeed. All along we've been hearing how fast twist and higher rpm's make things worse and according to that article that isn't so until you get an extremely high rpm. Eye opener for sure.

[newton]

I was able to get out. Not what I had hoped for, but at least I got some testing under my belt. I set up the chrony, but by the time I got to 24.5 grains of H4895 daylight was low enough to cause error and chrony didn't read the rest. I started with the IMR loads first, and would have attributed the groups opening up due to a hot barrel(never got too hot to touch though), but after shooting the 4895 loads I realized it was just a bad powder combo.

Nice thing, in a way, is that they were almost all at or under 1". But seeing how I know the gun can do better, I can't settle for it. I stopped at 25.5 grains of 4895, but think I'll try 26 grains later this week. I'll also run the 25.5 grain load over the chrony during good light. The factory Remington 55 grain SP I shot was going a hair over 3300.





There is 5 rounds in that 25.5 load, I think it sunk into the top two holes somewhere based on the amount of paper that had been pushed back in the holes. I'm next to positive I caused the high flier on the 25 grain load also. Needless to say, 4320 would work in a pinch, but 4895 far surpassed it in accuracy. Darn....

[newton]

I'll fix the sideways picture tomorrow. Forgot to mention that there was zero signs of any high pressure. The 25.5 4895 load is the only one that started to do anything noticeable to the primers, but they were still round edged, pretty much looked like the factory fired rounds.

[newton]

I do have one question. It looks like the H4895 load is going to achieve what I want. Out of curiousity, knowing they are different powders, would IMR 4895 also be a good one to try? Would it be plausible that they would give similar results? Anyone used it before in my application?

[GabbyM]

Gabby thanks for putting that up. It was very interesting indeed. All along we've been hearing how fast twist and higher rpm's make things worse and according to that article that isn't so until you get an extremely high rpm. Eye opener for sure.

Was informative. It very well explained the issue I saw with the Sierra 55gr BK loosing accuracy out at 400 yards. In the 1:12" twist barrel they simply were not stable and the B.C. wasn't what it was supposed to be. Which explained the 50gr bullet seaming to get there better and even out to 550 yards where we'd try to hit prairie dogs. But as mentioned in the article there 8 twist destroyed blitz bullets. You really need a high fragmentation bullet to shoot prairie dogs. We had guys try it with 1:8" twist barrels with all sorts of bullets. Worst is the target HP's as they simply don't' get kills. Nosler BT's and V-Max in 50 and 55 grain shot and killed well in the tight twist. But they lacked the high B.C. of the Sierra Blitz King and the BK's would kill a hundred dogs without a single cripple. You can miss them a couple inches short and they still get cut in half by frags. Remember the little buggers aren't but a couple inches through. Amount of energy you bring to target is not very important. Prairie dog rifle is a specialized peace of kit. Big gun very little soft target at long range. I built an AR-15 just for coyote hunting. It’s a 20 inch Criterion barrel 1:8 twist to shoot the Sierra 65gr GK. The 55gr GK shoots great too. I generally carry my CZ-527 in 222 however. Because it’s so nice.

[newton]

Never mind. I looked up data on hogdons and pressures and velocities are way different. Looks like more H4895 is in my future. I'd try H335, but that's hard to find. Powder choices are still minimal around here, and online for the most part.

I guess if that powder works I shouldn't go messing around unless I'm just looking for something to do. Or is there a good reason not to use H4895? I apriciate the help so far.

[vzerone]

Gabby I found the Hornady V-Max to be too explosive on critters. Even the heavier weight ones. After experiencing a bad episode with one on a coyote I tried one out on gallon jugs full of water. I didn't need to line a row up as the bullet never made it out of the first one. All the pieces, which weren't much bigger then shot BB's lay in the bottom of the jug. I thought "Geez, what are these good for, chipmonks?". They are still setting in their boxes unused. I did entertain the idea of loading them in the 22 Hornet as that has a much lower velocity and they wouldn't perform so violently. I do find the A-Max extremely accurate, but I've never tried those out on critters. Wonder how they would do, do you know?

[GabbyM]

A-Max would blow up more than a V-Max. Pure lead core. We shot a 208 gain 30 cal from a Blackout subsonic into jugs of water. All we found was the empty cup. They are not hunting bullets. With high frag bullets you need to be squared up half way on any animal over ten pounds or they'll turn out. If you read Hornady's description on there web page. They brag on explosive expansion. They mean it. I really like these Sierra Game Kings. They are the bullets Sierra says will penetrate and s far as I can tell they do. I've had good luck over the years with Plain Hornady 55gr SP. Bought a batch of a thousand a few years back and they shoot better than the ones I had back in the 1970's.Wolfer’s post #41 My most favorite bullet is Sierra's 55 BTSP. This is one of their game king line and nearly always exits with a nickel sized hole.. That is exactly the kind of performance I’d like to get. Was also helpful to hear him state this 1365 bullet will not stabilize for him in his 14 twist. Since I’ve a 1-14” twist 222. Cast boolits at 2,340 fps from the 222 knock the lights right out of critters. Never shot anything over a hundred feet away however. No exits on large vermin. River rats blow in half. Making this winters batch of bullets harder and tougher than the 3:6 air cooled I had.

[vzerone]

Well that settles it Gabby, I'll use the remainder of those V-Max bullets in my 22 Hornet (if they will stabilize) or either very reduced velocity in my 223.

[Larry Gibson]

I'm kind of the other way with varmint bullets; I want the to enter and explode. That's why I prefer the Hornady 55 SX. On coyote out to 300 yards there is seldom an exit and out to 500 yards there is excellent expansion and terminal effect. A coyote badly hit can go a long ways regardless of what the cartridge or bullet is. They are very tenacious and will die hard if badly hit. I have literally gutted them with Speer 130 gr HPs out of the .308W and had them travel 200+ yards before laying down. Another shot to finish the job was still required. I found any heart lung shot with the 55 SX meant a dead dog in short order.


Larry Gibson

[newton]

Just curious, why not head shoot the dogs?

[dualsport]

Higher probability of a wounded animal getting away, just like deer. Yes, some guys will say they never mess up a shot. Ever. I've heard it and don't believe it at all. Bravado. The heart/lung shot is most often the most humane shot. Bigger target. Better odds of a clean harvest.