Still Struggling With my Handloads

[Javelin Dan]

Hey guys, I need a little adult supervision. Instead of going forward, I've taken a step back and in recognition of the old saw “ When you've dug yourself a hole, stop digging!” I thought I'd better seek wiser council here.


First, I'd better recap where I've been. Sorry if you've seen it before in previous posts. I've been seriously reloading for only about 4 months. I'm loading for both .32 long and .32 ACP. I have one H&R 732 revolver and several .32 semi-autos. Over the last weekend, I bought a Kel-tec P32 which I have long lusted after as a personal carry piece. Obviously, the auto loads are the ones giving me fits. Before I started to load, I tried to establish a baseline using off-the-shelf ammo. CCI Blazers were the only rounds I could find consistently so I used those. They cycled exceedingly well with no failures to feed, or failures to eject. I also tried some Winchester “white box” target ammo which also worked very well, but did have a couple of failures to feed. They are a much shorter round measuring about .940” in length compared to CCI's at .960” length.


After seeking the advice of others, I started out using a 76 gr. lead round nose, flat point “Cowboy” bullet with an advertised .313” diameter from a manufacturer who shall remain nameless, hereafter known as bullet #1. These were pressed to a OAL of about .960” (to mimic the CCI's) over 1.7 gr. Bullseye (per Lyman's 49th) using a very light crimp using a Lee's single stage press and standard crimp die – just enough to roll the case mouth slightly inward, but still allowing it to be felt when dragging my thumbnail over it. I started out with just 100 bullets to make sure they would work, then bought another 500 and loaded and shot all but a very few. Overall, these rounds shot pretty well, but I did have a few failure to feeds along the way. I also had to throw away 2-3 bullets out of every 100 because the diameter was too small and the bullets wouldn't seat properly. Others were a greasy mess because of too much lube. Because I had a FEW chambering issues, and because I thought a round nose bullet might help with that, when it came time to re-order, I decided to try another vendor.


I found a similar but slightly different “Cowboy” bullet (bullet #2) from another manufacturer. This one was a 78 gr. lead round nose bullet also with an advertised diameter of .313”. Unfortunately, these only came in lots of 500. In the FAQ on the manufacturer's website, they tell you they won't sell a small quantity of bullets to try, so don't even ask. I didn't. Fools rush in where wise men fear to tread, so I ordered 500.


Because of the Thanksgiving holiday, I haven't been able to get to the range for a couple of weeks, so I spent my spare time loading about 250 rounds of .32 ACP. These were also pressed to a length of
.960”. I took them to the range today along with my JA 32 and of course the Kel-tec which I have never shot. I started with the JA 32 because I knew, or thought I did, what to expect from it. I was gratified when the first four rounds went bang, but then had a failure to feed. The round got stuck in the chamber at a 45 degree angle just above the magazine which has been an occasional problem with this gun. I cleared it and cycled the slide, and the next round did the same thing. And the next, and the next...you get the picture. I then tried the Kel-tec and never got it to fire a single round! Each round would stick horizontally directly above the magazine, but wouldn't fully chamber forward. At that point, I think the full diameter of the bullet was engaging and interfering with the back end of the barrel. In fact, I could see that the slide was held back slightly from going all the way forward. I packed up and walked out of the range with my tail between my legs.



When I got home, I decided to closely compare the two bullets. I first got out my digital calipers and measured the diameter of the two bullets. While both being advertised at .313”, only bullet #2 actually measured that – bullet #1 measured .312”. Also, while the lube and crimp grooves were basically the same, bullet #1 measured .454” in height (length?), while bullet #2 measured .474”. Trying to make sense of this, I formulated a theory that the shorter length and more radical taper of bullet #1 allowed it to fully chamber without interfering with the back end of the gun barrel. The greater length and more ball shape of bullet #2, not so much. Am I on the right track, or is it something else entirely? If I am right, should I...

1. Go back to the use of bullet #1
   
2. Find a bullet with an advertised diameter of .312
   
3. Could I drop the powder charge to 1.5 gr. (minimum shown in Lyman's) and try seating the

the bullet to an OAL of .940” like the Winchesters just to see if it would chamber?

4.) Do something else?



I can easily use the rest of these bullets in the .32 long loads. But the thought of individually pulling some 250 bullets makes me very sad...no, crazy! I could really use a little pep talk folks.

[Garyshome]

Do you have a case gage? Usually if it fits in a case gage it fits in the chamber. Sorry I don't know anything about loading 32's.
Check to see if the case is shaving the boolit, if that is happening it won't chamber correctly in a semi auto. This is caused by not enough bell on the case mouth.
You should slug the bore to find the correct diameter needed for your firearm
"I formulated a theory" no doubt a dangerous thing to do.
Different sizes and shapes in boolits are designed that way by someone who knows more then me.
Hope some of this helps

[Mk42gunner]

I have not loaded for the .32ACP, but this is what I would do. Make up a magazine capacity batch of dummy rounds, no primer or powder. Try cycling those through your gun(s).

Since you have multiple .32's, I would start with the either the one with the tightest chamber, or the one you like to shoot the most. Get it working and then modify the load for the rest. Hopefully all will work with the same load/ bullet/ oal.

Case gauges are nice to have, but you can take the barrel out of most auto loaders to use for a "plunk test."

Robert

[edler7]

just enough to roll the case mouth slightly inward, but still allowing it to be felt when dragging my thumbnail over it.

Maybe a little bit heavier crimp ? Case could be hanging up on the rear of the chamber.

[Javelin Dan]

I was cautioned early in all this that .32 ACP headspaces on the case mouth. I was told it's easy to over-crimp. Still wondering if a factory crimp die would make all this easier, but I want to eat this elephant one bite at a time.

Mk42gunner - I was thinking exactly that at supper. I may just try that and see where it leads.

Garyshome - I hear ya bro...theories are like rectums - everyone has one, but on one wants to see mine!

[JWFilips]

OK I shoot a JA 32 (& it is my carry gun most times) They have a sloppy bore You need a .314 Boolit Try the ranch Dog 32 /75 grain from my good friend Jerry Cunningham at Carolina Cast Bullets Tell him what you need sized .314" I like them in his Cowboy soft alloy . They obturate better that way! They hit hard! Load then short. Then they are dead nutz on for the JA! That is my carry load when I'm not packing larger (90 % of the time) If you need load data for the JA 32 PM me But it will olly be for Jerry's RD boolits

[Javelin Dan]

JWFillips - I've had problems with the JA 32 - don't want to go too far afield here, but maybe we can get to that later. Focusing on the problem at hand, it SEEMS to me that the new bullets are too large in diameter, interfering with the back of the barrel, and not allowing the round to go forward enough to chamber properly. To be clear, are you saying that I could be wrong about this? (ENTIRELY POSSIBLE!) Keep in mind that the previous bullets which measured smaller when I checked did work most of the time. Thanks to everyone for trying to help, by the way...

[JWFilips]

When you are ready we can talk: take your time and with a grain of salt!

[csatrustburg]

I would stick with mk42 make up a mag of them and chamber each by cycling them. Also I start with just a few each loaded generally different powder and such looking for best accuracy never 250 straight out the gate. I know paying to go by a range you want to be able to shoot but just load a few test make sure they work you get the accuracy you want then load them all up! When JW has the same gun and its running good try it out might be the ticket! Good luck bud.

[Javelin Dan]

As per MK42gunner's suggestion, I spent the evening pressing some dummy loads (spent primers, no powder). I adjusted my press to aim for an OAL of .945 (+ or - a couple hundreths). I then loaded the mags of both guns and tried to cycle them as best I could by hand. I had difficulty ejecting them hard and fast enough by hand, and ended up with a nice raw spot on the side of my thumb knuckle, but as close as I can tell, they just may work. Just have to load a few.

The good news is that the wife and I had purchased a membership at a gun club with indoor range when we started all this, so all I gotta do is drive down there (about 10 miles) and buy a target for $1.50. May do that tomorrow if I can swing it. I'll report back when I have any news. Thanks.

[John Boy]

Dan, when I have chambering or ejection issues in semiauto's ... I mark the cases and bullet nose with a permanent marker or Permatex Prussian blue. Put the rounds in the magazine - chamber and eject by hand. Then look the ejected rounds over to determine where the permanent marker has been scrapped. If the nose is scrapped - COL is too long. If the cases are marked from the mouth to the bottom of the seated bullet - bullet is too large in diameter. If the webs are scrapped - cases not full length sized
And a hard factory crimp many times alleviates chambering & ejection issues

[rond]

Take the barrel out and see if your reload will drop into the chamber. If not run it into your seating die a little deeper at a time until it does. That will be the length that you need to load your rounds. I screw the seating stem in and seat without a crimp, then back the stem out and crimp the case. It adds a step but works better that way for me. If it is a lot deeper into the case you will need to reduce the powder charge. I've loaded 1000's of 32 acp with that 78 grain boolit and it works in all my guns.

[mdi]

Just couple thoughts; You mentioned crimping "just enough to roll the case mouth...", are you uding a roll crimp? I do not crimp any of my 45 ACP or 9mm ammo, I just use a taper crimp die to remove any flare in the case mouth. Also try the "Plunk Test" with your gun's barrel as a gauge. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...633-Plunk-Test

'Nother thought, I'd use the OAL spec., from my manual, of a bullet with the same profile as the one I'm using, and adjust (shorten) the bullet seating as needed to pass the Plunk Test...

[Blackwater]

JD, first thing I'd recommend is to check your focus. Are you just doing things because you're told to do it that way, or did you read the front section of your loading manual, and come to understand WHY you do it that way? That's the first step, and there's really no way around it. Once you understand WHY you do things a particular way to get a particular result, you're on the short path to great success. There's no real way to reload without thinking as you go along, and noticing closely what you're doing and how it's working for you.

With this step alone, you should learn how to adjust your dies precisely and why you adjust them just so, and yes, this really does matter. A LOT!

Most manuals give a very good synopsis of what to do and why, and once you understand this, you'll be self sufficient, and should have few problems that the guys here can help you with, but it's also a good place to communicate with other newbies so they can learn from your mistakes, and us old timers can chuckle when we remember we've been there and done that in our time.

This is also the one significant step that most newbies neglect so commonly when starting out, but it'll always be the best way to really come to understand WHY you do things in particular ways to achieve particular results. Crimping is a big problem for many, and most mauals have very good instructions on how to do it, but most simply won't read them, and so, they waste several times the time it'd take to simply read it and come to an understanding, than it does in creating problematic reloads. Some even quit, saying reloads are "unreliable," when it's really only THEIR loads that are that way.

Live's WAY too short to shoot 2nd or 3rd rate ammo, and you can't really learn anything from practice with less than excellent ammo, so folks who refuse to do their due diligence and read the manuals and every other good source they can get ahold of are doing themselves the biggest disservice they possibly can, and wasting MUCH time and money and components in the process. Give it a try and I think you'll see what I mean. It was nearly ALL I had when I started out, and each additional manual I got was read through on the front part about how to do it, until I nearly knew them by heart, and I wasn't so haughty as to not go back to them from time to time and look up areas I might find problematic, and every time I did this, I'd get some sort of good lesson that built my knowledge up so that finally, I got to shooting ammo that I still regard as BETTER than any factory ammo available. That ain't no small thing! If you doubt me, give it a try, and I think you'll see what I mean. FWIW?

[bedbugbilly]

First - I don't load the 32 so have no experience with that round/pistol. I do load 9mm though and for several different pistols. Yes, I know . . . every pistol is different in terms of bore, chamber, etc. And I also know all about the plunk test.

In an earlier post, a "cartridge gauge" or "case gauge" was mentioned. If you are going to reload the 32, 380, 9mm, etc. . . a cartridge gauge is money well spent. I keep my 9mm gauge right on the bench where a loaded round can be dropped in to make sure it is within specs. All I load is cast - some sized, some not - in a variety of designs/weights. From the time I started loading 9mm, I never had a problem until a few weeks ago. I ended up with some rounds that wouldn't chamber correctly and allow my one pistol to go back into battery. It ended up that I was pulling the boolits out of a container that held two different batches of "as cast" from two different casting sessions. Never had a problem with any of them before but some were evidently just a tad too much from one of the mold cavities. I was able to check what I had loaded up easily with the cartridge gauge and just adjust my Lee FCD to put a little more taper crimp on 'em . . then all was well.

Cartridge gauges run around $20 and are well worth the money to point a problem out quickly.

Hopefully you can get your problem ironed out without too much frustration. Good luck!

[Javelin Dan]

I did press some rounds to the .945” dimension I talked about last night and made it to the range today. The results were MUCH better, but not perfect. Here's what happened:


I started with the Kel-tec and was gratified to see it chambered and fired right away until on the third magazine full, the gun jammed with one in the pipe. I couldn't physically cycle the slide and asked the rangemaster for help. He couldn't strong-arm it either, and took it off the range to clear it so I couldn't see what he did. I was able to shoot a couple more mags through it, then it happened again. Again, I couldn't see what the rangemaster did to clear it. I then decided to retire the gun for the day and wanted to manually eject the remaining rounds (5) from the magazine with my thumb. The top round wouldn't budge out of the magazine. I didn't have anything in my range bag to pry with, so I showed it to the rangemaster on the way out. He couldn't manually budge it either and didn't try to pry on it, but said he hadn't seen that before (they are a Kel-tec dealer) and suggested I contact Kel-tec about it. At home, I did gently pry the round out with a small screwdriver, heard a “click”, and then everything seemed to return to normal. I manually loaded and unloaded the magazine a couple times with just my thumb and all seemed well. I know the manual said to expect a few jams and failures to feed before the gun is broken in, but I bought this to be a reliable carry piece and right now I don't trust it. Could well be my handloads, but the rangemaster inspected them and didn't seem to see an obvious problem. I've e-mailed Kel-tec and will wait to see what they say. Didn't mention I was shooting handloads by the way...


I also took the JA 32 with me and actually faired a little better with that. I had a couple of failures to feed (bullet jams at 45 degree angle above the mag - it's happened before with this gun) but simply racking the slide cleared it and otherwise, everything went bang normally. FWIW, all rounds that failed to feed were inspected and reloaded and fired normally on the second try. Both these guns are fairly new – the JA 32 has just about 200 rounds through it, the Kel-tec only about 25.


Blackwater – great advice, and actually I do get out the old Lyman's and give it a look now and then. Under the “Seating and Crimping” section of the “Reloading Handgun Cartridges” chapter, there is precious little that is pertinent here other than to make similar suggestions about checking for proper chambering and to say...


“Circumstances which include magazine length, chamber dimensions, cannelure location, and BULLET SHAPE may make it necessary to use a shorter than suggested overall length.”


However, in the “Jacketed Bullet” section, it says the following:


“In some cases crimping may be desirable, but it may be impractical or even dangerous to roll crimp. For example, any case which headspaces from the case mouth such as 30 Carbine, 9mm Luger, and 45 ACP (and if I'm not wrong, this includes .32 ACP – correct? (JD), should never be roll crimped. Doing so shortens the case and alters headspacing. Yet each of these are subject to forceful impacts with the feeding surfaces of the firearm. The solution is to TAPER CRIMP. This method forces the outside of the case neck tightly against the bullet without shortening the case.”


Lee describes their standard crimp die as a “modified roll and taper crimp”, whatever the hell that means. I've read many a testimonial about guys who struggled with chambering issues with .32 ACP and had their problems go away when they ordered a factory crimp die. I had wanted to try this without it because many others said it was possible, but I'm wondering if it's time to end my misery and just “pull the trigger”.

[gwpercle]

Dan, I've loaded a lot of 32 acp's over the years for a Walther PPK. You've got a lot of things going against you. Your not that experienced with all this, multiple semi-auto pistols adds to the difficulty as does the fact the 32 acp isn't the easiest thing to get working right. The truth is it's a stinker and at times hard to get sorted out. Light powder charges cause a lot of feeding and ejection problems.
You need to find a boolit diameter that when seated will allow it to chamber. For this use dummy rounds to test things, sized, no primer, no powder, boolit seated to a depth that looks right (close to factory) see if it will drop into the chamber, plunk test. If it doesn't fit, seat the boolit deeper , in small increments until it does. After that , reassemble gun and load it into a magazine, test by manually retracting the slide and letting it go...if it feeds and chambers , you got your depth down.
Work with one gun at a time. next powder charge some for a range test. Do not use the minimum load , that can cause function problems, start in the middle, that's a great place. Once you get one gun shooting chances are good it will shoot in the others.
32 acp is not known for it's ease of reloadability but don't throw in the towel just yet. One thing, after this experience you should have no problems loading anything.
Gary
The modified roll and taper crimp means it takes out the flair you did to seat the cast boolit then tapers the final crimp.

[Javelin Dan]

I cleaned both guns today and while I was at it, I grabbed one of my .945" boolits and dropped it in the back end of both barrels. PLUNK! Dropped right in all the way to the hilt with no interference. With that test passed, I showed a couple to a neighbor who has handloaded for years and he couldn't find any fault with them other than to question the crimping process. I thought about it and decided to adjust all the crimp out of my standard crimp die, load some new rounds, and take them to the range next week. If they still give me grief, I'll order the factory crimp die. Won't have any news till the end of next week, but I'll report back with whatever happens.

[edler7]

A couple more thoughts -

are you seating and crimping in one operation, or 2 separate operations ?

Any chance you could occasionally be limp wristing your pistol while firing ?

[Minerat]

I don't load for 32s either. But I have experienced the live round jam/extraction problem in a Colt Officer 45 ACP. It indexes on the case mouth too. I was loading a flat point tapered boolit and using an OAL similar to FMJ Ball ammo. I found that the jam happened if I left the shoulder of the boolit out too far from the case mouth, as little as 2/1000s would cause the problem. I even used the plunk test and the funny thing was they passed but then some would jam while shooting. So what was happening was that when the slide returned to battery it was jambing the shoulder into the rifling. The only way to clear the jam was to insert a short rod of some type (screw driver) in the muzzle and gently tap on a bench while pulling back on the slide. I used an empty mag in the gun, that way the slide would lock when the round was tapped out. Finally figured that recoil was causing the boolits to move forward in the case during the first couple of shots in some of the loads. Fixed it by seating the boolit so the top of the shoulder was level with the top of the case and using an aggressive taper crimp, ie seat all of the boolits and readjust the die to do the crimp and give it another 1/8 of a turn down. Also found with that lead bollit the feed ramp on the Colt would catch or cause a deformation on the shoulder that caused the miss feed or jamb. I polished the ramp too just in case. Final resolution was to quit loading that style of boolit in the ACP and used them in the 45 colt.