Grizzly tough bullet -.45-70?

[CourtenayBoy]

The only way to stop a charging grizz is to bust his wheels. You can do a double lung shot on anything that walks on this earth and kill it; but it can take more time than you are willing to risk. The heavy, wide meplat bullets will penetrate when and where you want. Just remember that millions of buffalo were killed with 1200 fps lead slugs. A COWW bullet with a wide meplat will pentrate like a freight train, and contrary to popular belief, the faster you drive it, the less it will penetrate. Any 400-500 grain slug going 1300-1600 fps will do and end to end on anything you will want to kill in N America. Have a read of Garretts penetration tests.....heres the link http://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.html you will be amazed at the results. I have one of the hammerhead rounds in a mold from Tom at Accurate with a huge Meplat weighing in at 420 grains without lube or gas check.. If I recall correctly they come in at 430 all done up. I have the utmost confidence in this round on anything I can tangle with in the Selkirk mountains where I live....and we have some very impressive bears here.

Attachment 154522

Sounds right up my alley. Could I get that mould number off you?

Mike

[35Whelen]

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_...=46-420C-D.png

Double check with Tom if you are using this in a levergun, as I'm not sure if there is enough taper to chamber in those short throated rifles. Otherwise I would go with the previously listed one, or the same nose shape with heavier weight.

[Geezer in NH]

The only way to stop a charging grizz is to bust his wheels.

Not really, the same as stopping a charging elephant is to cancel their credit card!

[BrentD]

Sometimes, I think you guys oversell the penetration issues "just a bit". I posted some results from my moose hunt were 4 of 5 of my 483 gr slugs did not fully penetrate a moose (so much for "end to end in anything in North America").

That said, I think the 400+ gr flat meplats would be the ticket in a .45-70 multishooter like a Marlin. Just don't oversell the idea that everything up and dies instantly when hit from any angle with one of these. Aim for the CNS at halitosis ranges, and forget about "breaking down" a charging Grizzly. You need him stoned dead and frontal shots at shoulders ain't where it's likely to be at - or at least that's my opinion given the same amoutn of experience that most of us have with this subject.

[sharpsguy]

Brent--I suspect that you would have shot all the way through that moose if your bullets had been a touch harder and a little heavier. 40-1 is too soft for really good penetration in bison and moose sized animals. I have two friends that have each killed moose and got complete pass through and one shot kills using 20-1 bullets. One was a WFN greaser at 502 grains and the other a 511 grain round nosed paper patched bullet. It may not seem like much, but the jump from 480 to 500 to 510 grains makes a noticeable difference in penetration.

The only time I failed to get a complete pass through on a bison was a 480 FN greaser out of a 45-110 at 1338 fps. I think the bullet was too light and too fast, as a 520 grain round nosed Govt. bullet at 1260 went through and through the same animal. I have also shot that same 480 FN through and through both shoulders of a 2000 pound bison bull with a 45-70 at 1242 fps.

I am big on double lung hits with a pass through, as the exit wound stays open and causes an air leak that collapses the lungs. This is the quickest kill short of a CNS hit, as collapsed lungs cause the animal to go into systemic shock and everything simply shuts down.

[reloader28]

We've had 3 griz attacks here in the last month and a half. 2 of them are neighbors and all by different bears. The last one was bird hunting and he managed to get off 3 shots with his shotgun. She dropped about 10' from him on the last shot to the face. Covered 30yds in like 2 seconds. Unfortunatly she got up and the game wardens had to look for her.

Since then I've been thinking about switching to 00buck in a shotgun for bear protection. If you are charged, it will be fast and the bear will always be facing you. Maybe a 30cal or bigger shot ball to the head is better than a single boolit.

[CourtenayBoy]

Thanks for all the replies folks, I do appreciate all the help I can get. I slugged my bore tonight using fishing weights and it is a perfect .457

I assume I should go with a bullet at .458 or larger?

Mike

[CourtenayBoy]

I said in my post that it was too long to work in a Marlin 1895.l I was just offering some extra real world information and you failed to pick up on it. Second point. I don't believe that the large round nose on the Govt. bullet will cause a chain fire in a tubular magazine. Remington and Winchester have offered ammunition for lever guns for over a hundred years that have more pointed nose shapes than the big round nosed Govt. bullet and this factory ammo does not detonate in the magazine tube. I actually doubt that you will see a grizzly, but good luck anyway with your learning curve.

I meant no offense by my statement and do appreciate you sharing your experience.

I hope I don't see any grizzlies either. I'm just fine with that but insurance is nice.

Mike

[Cornbread]

Thanks for all the replies folks, I do appreciate all the help I can get. I slugged my bore tonight using fishing weights and it is a perfect .457

I assume I should go with a bullet at .458 or larger?

Mike

My Guide Gun is the same as yours internal diameter wise and I shoot a .458 or .459 bullet out of it depending on which bullet type I am using. For some reason mine seems to like the 405s at .459 and the lighter ones like 350gr at .458. Also because the grooves are so shallow on the guide gun it is really lube sensitive and if I lube anything more than just one bottom groove I end up getting lube purge fliers every few shots. Lubing just one groove I get .8 of an inch groups at 100 yards from a lead sled when load testing my best load, if I lube more than that the fliers can open that group up to anywhere from 3" to 5" or worse sometimes.

[CourtenayBoy]

My Guide Gun is the same as yours internal diameter wise and I shoot a .458 or .459 bullet out of it depending on which bullet type I am using. For some reason mine seems to like the 405s at .459 and the lighter ones like 350gr at .458. Also because the grooves are so shallow on the guide gun it is really lube sensitive and if I lube anything more than just one bottom groove I end up getting lube purge fliers every few shots. Lubing just one groove I get .8 of an inch groups at 100 yards from a lead sled when load testing my best load, if I lube more than that the fliers can open that group up to anywhere from 3" to 5" or worse sometimes.

The lube issue I hadn't heard yet, good to know. Now that I know bore diameter I am trying to find an inexpensive lee luber sizer in .458 or .459. Canada sucks for reloading gear and honestly I can't find one anywhere in the country online.

Maybe a sizer isn't necessary now that I know what size mould to buy. How do you keep the lube to only the lower lube rings?

Mike

[Cornbread]

I use a lyman 4500 lube sizer set to only go down as far as the first groove to set the gas check and lube one groove for all the bullets I am going to do that way. Then I back off the pressure on it so it doesn't output any lube and set it down so it will size the entire bullet and then I run them all through again. This two step method allows me to lube only one groove and set the gas check and then later size the entire bullet.

The other method that works well and is a whole lot cheaper and you can use your existing reloading press is to size using an NOE generic push through sizing die, .458 bushing and push rod for .45 cal and then pan lube it after it is sized so that the lube in the pan only goes up to the first groove.

You can use any variation of those two processes that works best and cheapest for you(or something else entirely) but the nice thing about the NOE push through sizer is it fits your existing press and if you want to change the bushing from .458 to .459 or even up to .460 you only have to pick up that size bushing from them and chuck it up in the die so for every size within a caliber you are only out a little less than $10(USD) once you have the generic die and push rod. I'm not sure if NOE is a sponsor here or not? If they are I can link you to their sizing die stuff so you can order from them.

[BrentD]

[QUOTE=sharpsguy;3453350]Brent--I suspect that you would have shot all the way through that moose if your bullets had been a touch harder and a little heavier.
Very unlikely considering that the bullets hardly expanded at all even though there were 40:1. The only expanded bullet is the last, a neck shot at point blank that centered the spine right behind the head. There rest of them show no signs of being "too soft".

40-1 is too soft for really good penetration in bison and moose sized animals. I have two friends that have each killed moose and got complete pass through and one shot kills using 20-1 bullets. One was a WFN greaser at 502 grains and the other a 511 grain round nosed paper patched bullet. It may not seem like much, but the jump from 480 to 500 to 510 grains makes a noticeable difference in penetration.

Definitely not in my experience at all. I have shot through some with lighter bullets and failed to shoot through some others, that were both an order of magnitude smaller with much heavier bullets.

The only time I failed to get a complete pass through on a bison was a 480 FN greaser out of a 45-110 at 1338 fps. I think the bullet was too light and too fast, as a 520 grain round nosed Govt. bullet at 1260 went through and through the same animal. I have also shot that same 480 FN through and through both shoulders of a 2000 pound bison bull with a 45-70 at 1242 fps.

Perhaps bison hide is not nearly as tough as moose.

I am big on double lung hits with a pass through, as the exit wound stays open and causes an air leak that collapses the lungs. This is the quickest kill short of a CNS hit, as collapsed lungs cause the animal to go into systemic shock and everything simply shuts down.

All four bullets double lunged. The lungs did not collapse. He bled to death.

[sharpsguy]

The fact that the moose was double lunged and the moose bled to death without the lungs collapsing reinforces my point about the need for an exit wound. The air leak from the exit wound is what causes the rapid collapse of the lungs and the onset of immediate systemic shock which is a quick killer in a large animal. The fact that you shot through the lungs four times without collapsing them meant that the moose was going to die, but it was going to take longer than if they had collapsed. Collapsed lungs or not, that IS a nice moose.

BTW, I have a really good flat nosed paper patched bullet that hits like a freight train. I'll send you some with the paper I use on them if you would like.

[BrentD]

There was a an exit one of the 4 did exit and another of the 4 followed very nearly the same track coming within an inch of the exit. So, no, double lunging even with 5 holes in the rib cage (4 in 1 out) wasn't enough to collapse anything. Nothing "immediate" about anything.

He does taste damn good, that is for sure.

I will definitely use a flatnose next time. I do not think round noses are at all appropriate after this experience. Although my bullets did have a flat point, it was far too small to matter.

Back to the OP's issue a bear bullet, I think the large meplate bullets in the 400+ range would be the ticket. Don't count on much expansion, in fact, make the bullets hard, but put the bullet on the central nervous system and all will be good. If not there, then you may have some issues. Penetration should not be too much of an issue since the CNS is not very deep. And basically, on a charging bear, all you need is to penetrate the top of the skull, nose/muzzle, back of the mouth, or throat and you will have success. Heart shooting is going to be damn tough and maybe not fast enough, and double lunging, isn't going to happen in a charge even if it was fast enough in taking effect, (which it isn't).

Next time I'm bear charged, that's what I hope to have anyway

Brent

[Geezer in NH]

I had no problem with lung shot moose with my flintlock 54 cal 120grn 2f and 1 1/2-2 inch exit holes both moose went 25 yards or so.

[Markbo]

What projectile Geezer....come on you KNOW everyone wants to know hiw heavy!

[Lonegun1894]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the RCBS 45-405-FN. Mine weighs 425grs before lube, casts at .4605", so I lube it and run it through a .460" sized just to crimp the GC on, and it feeds and shoots great in my 1895.

[Geezer in NH]

What projectile Geezer....come on you KNOW everyone wants to know hiw heavy!

.530 round ball .015 patch lubed with bear fat and bee's wax 230 grn I think

[sac]

Get a Lyman 457121PH. It is a 480 grain flat nosed bullet with seven grease grooves, and is magic in a 45-70. Cast it from AC WW and load it with 38 grains of 3031 for 1300 fps and you will shoot through any grizzly that walks from any angle. It cycles through my Marlin 1895 like butter. I have a friend in Alaska that runs this in his 1886 Winchester and loves it. I have not used it on bear, but I have gotten complete pass through on three different bison and several African animals with it. This is the Real Deal, not a guess.

Sorry for bringing up a post from a year ago, but do you have an OAL. for this load?

Thanks Scott

[tdoyka]

Welcome to Jae-Bok Young's Bullet Casting

i'd go with the 550gr wfngc or a 420gr wfngc.