What makes the Ruger No.1 such a strong action?

[JWT]

Frank de Haas wrote a series of books that examine single shot actions in great detail. After all of his research he was a big fan of the #1.

Single Shot Rifles And Actions (ISBN 0-910676-01-x)
A Potpourri Of Single Shot Rifles And Actions
More Single Shot Rifles And Actions
Mr. Single Shot's Book Of Rifle Plans

All interesting reading for fans of the single shot rifles.

[JHeath]

On a hinged action the hinge can have more cross sectional area than the lugs on bolt guns. The lock (latch) doesn't need much strength as the hinge carries most of the load. Because the only force against the latch is due to the small offset between the bore centerline and the hinge pin it is only a small fraction of the total force.

Yeah but the OP wanted to know why the No. 1 is stronger. I think because the No. 1 has no hinge, no offset, and much greater locking surface. The falling block does not swing shut so needs no clearance to swing. The falling block design puts large bearing surfaces in compression: the pressure actually pushes the block and receiver together. To kb it the entire receiver walls would have to fail in tension, or the barrel and ring explode. The pressure in a hinged gun puts the latch in tension. A kb would need only that latch to fail or the barrel which has no ring.

[Doc Highwall]

The strength of a action is dependent upon
1:The design which includes the cross sectional area at the thinnest point that contains the pressure
2:The metallurgy
3:The tolerance that are used to manufacture the action.

A chain is no stronger then it's weakest link!

[Clark]

My father was chief engineer gun designer for 40 years.
He knew famous people and was a high power guy.
It is not easy being an average engineer and being his son.
But... he showed me how to calculate the strength of my NEF handi rifle 45/70.

I am a big fan of De Haas and the Ruger #1.
I have calculated the strength of lots of guns and tried to blow them up.
They never yield when they should because peak chamber pressure is only for a millisecond and the steel ratings come from static tests.

Cut to the chase:
The Ruger #1 is so strong, it does not matter how strong it is.
The brass will flow like mud before the action is the primary failure.
The way the Ruger #1 deals with destroyed brass is beautiful. The gas never gets me, and the #1 can extract anything.



Here is some brass coming out of one of my Ruger #1 rifles.

[ebner glocken]

I'm most curious what load it took to make brass flow like that. If you're uncomfortable publishing that in an open forum feel free to PM the loads you used to me. Don't worry, I have NO intentions of actually using them.

Ebner

[AbitNutz]

I wish I had the budget and the internal fortitude to be able to test rifles to destruction. There's a youtube channel where some good Ol' boys pack a 7.62x54R with "range trash"...all manor of powder swept off the range...not exactly sure what that is.

They then try to blow up an old Mosin...it took a while but they finally did it.

I have a Ruger No1 in 450/400 Nitro Express and that has a max pressure of 39,000. I understand that brass starts to fail at about 65,000, which seems to be the max pressure of today's hottest magnums. I wonder what would be the results of loading the 450/400 NE to 65,000....No, I have no intention of finding out but as a thought experiment, it's interesting.

[NavyVet1959]

I understand that brass starts to fail at about 65,000, which seems to be the max pressure of today's hottest magnums. I wonder what would be the results of loading the 450/400 NE to 65,000....No, I have no intention of finding out but as a thought experiment, it's interesting.

Sounds like time to start experimenting with steel cased ammo.

[Clark]

I'm most curious what load it took to make brass flow like that. If you're uncomfortable publishing that in an open forum feel free to PM the loads you used to me. Don't worry, I have NO intentions of actually using them.

Ebner

Those were all the same load, 18 gr Blue Dot 35 gr Vmax.
Blue Dot works well at 15 gr ~ 35kpsi 3500 fps, but at 18gr it makes 4100 fps and is easy on the brass or 4200 fps and destroys the brass. It is very erratic.



Here is a work up in a different Ruger #1 223
Left to right H335 55 gr 223 brass and Quickload prediction:
unfired, extractor groove .329"
28 gr, extractor groove .329", 11% overload 69 kpsi
29 gr, extractor groove .329", 15% overload 80kpsi
30 gr, extractor groove .3295", 19% overload 92kpsi
31 gr, extractor groove .3320", 23% overload 106kpsi

Notice how steady the increases are?
H335 in 223 is more predictable.



Here is 18 gr of Blue Dot again, but in an AR15.
Notice the mark of:
1) extractor
2) ejector
3) stretch in front of the web

The AR15 is also not gas adjustable. The Ruger #1 is far more versatile in loading.

[leebuilder]

Niffty stuff. Thanks for sharing. Gonna get my no1 tropical in 375 H&H out and crack off a few rounds.
be safe

[JHeath]

Those were all the same load, 18 gr Blue Dot 35 gr Vmax.
Blue Dot works well at 15 gr ~ 35kpsi 3500 fps, but at 18gr it makes 4100 fps and is easy on the brass or 4200 fps and destroys the brass. It is very erratic.



Here is a work up in a different Ruger #1 223
Left to right H335 55 gr 223 brass and Quickload prediction:
unfired, extractor groove .329"
28 gr, extractor groove .329", 11% overload 69 kpsi
29 gr, extractor groove .329", 15% overload 80kpsi
30 gr, extractor groove .3295", 19% overload 92kpsi
31 gr, extractor groove .3320", 23% overload 106kpsi

Notice how steady the increases are?
H335 in 223 is more predictable.



Here is 18 gr of Blue Dot again, but in an AR15.
Notice the mark of:
1) extractor
2) ejector
3) stretch in front of the web

The AR15 is also not gas adjustable. The Ruger #1 is far more versatile in loading.

Clark, thanks again. Your research into safety margins and failure modes is really welcome. Too many sources say what's safe and end with "beyond this place there be dragons", which is a poor substitute for knowledge. I build rigging. Some hardware manufacturers list safe working loads for products. I always need to know the design factor, and work backward from the ultimate strength. It means little to be told "safe working loads" if the design factor of mixed components could be anything from 3 to 10. . The progression you list above, with extractor groove threshold, is really interesting.

[AbitNutz]

This is a bit of a stretch but does anyone know what heavy artillery and the like pressure out at? Like the 120mm gun on an Abrams or the 16" gun on an Iowa class. The 120mm throws a round at well over 4000 fps...no idea what the velocity is of one of the Volkswagen sized projectiles out of a 16 inchers are. Are the pressures on these type of weapons huge as well?

[Good Cheer]

Considering how to max the velocities in an Indiana compliant 1.8" case length and .35 minimum caliber I'm looking seriously at another Ruger single shooter. Not going to butcher my Texas deer rifle to do it though!

[oldred]

This is a bit of a stretch but does anyone know what heavy artillery and the like pressure out at? Like the 120mm gun on an Abrams or the 16" gun on an Iowa class. The 120mm throws a round at well over 4000 fps...no idea what the velocity is of one of the Volkswagen sized projectiles out of a 16 inchers are. Are the pressures on these type of weapons huge as well?

Not sure about the pressures so I can't answer that question but those 4000+ FPS rounds are sabots so the pressure may not be all that high.


EDIT: Wow! I just asked Mr Google that question and the abrams round is from 5200 to 5700 FPS!!!


That must be a sabot round but still!!!!!!!!!!

Yep it's a sabot round but look at the cost of that sucker, $8,500 a shot!!!!!!!!

"Muzzle velocity of 1,555 m/s (5,100 ft/s).[citation needed] The sabot is of composite material. This variant is unofficially referred to by Abrams tank crews as the "super sabot".[6] It costs around $8,500"

[Clark]

This is a bit of a stretch but does anyone know what heavy artillery and the like pressure out at? Like the 120mm gun on an Abrams or the 16" gun on an Iowa class. The 120mm throws a round at well over 4000 fps...no idea what the velocity is of one of the Volkswagen sized projectiles out of a 16 inchers are. Are the pressures on these type of weapons huge as well?

My father designed guns and vehicles to haul guns from 1946 to 1988.
The first thing he did on guns is now called the M55 and it is still used by Israel to shoot up Lebanon.
He worked with a 1938 book called
http://www.amazon.com/Elements-Ordin...YBG/ref=sr_1_1

The math is hard. Should be at least a senior in engineering college to use that as a text book.
It will lead you through the Le Duc equations
http://www.mindspring.com/~sfaber1/leduc.htm

So much math... one interesting thing i just read page 82 is the 14" guns in 1938 were only getting 250 accurate rounds.
A 220 Swift does better than that.

Also on page 82, gun powder has 1.4M ft pounds of energy per pound.... hmm

[BAGTIC]

Chamber pressure on 16 inch Mk 7 battleship gun was 37,000 psi. Pressure on 120 mm tank gun is 62,000 psi, same as 30-06, 308, 270, etc.

[AbitNutz]

Chamber pressure on 16 inch Mk 7 battleship gun was 37,000 psi. Pressure on 120 mm tank gun is 62,000 psi, same as 30-06, 308, 270, etc.

Wow, that's interesting. I would have thought that such meg guns would develop mega pressures.

[Shooter6br]

I may never find out how strong a Ruger #1 is since I shoot 45-70 350g bullet at 1200FPS ( but accidents can happen !)

[EDG]

If you investigate the M829A1 Silver bullet round the pressure is given as 5600 BAR = 81,200 PSI.

Anectdotally a former tank armorer told me the pressure with the electric primed ammo with the short sealing cups would run up to 90,000 PSI

[AbitNutz]

Anecdotally a former tank armorer told me the pressure with the electric primed ammo with the short sealing cups would run up to 90,000 PSI

No wonder they have to use "Super Steel". The stuff that is using ESR (Electro-Slag-Remelting) and VAR (Vacuum-Arc-Remelting) Refinement processes.

I can only imagine what a forged receiver and barrel made from that stuff would cost.

[Fotis]

Personally I'm of the opinion that the modern Winchester/Browning Hi Walls are every bit as strong as the Ruger.

They are!