Cast Performance Boolits question

[runningbear44]

Hello Gentlemen,

Thank you for allowing me to join your forum. I'm new to reloading and and working on my very first load. I've got a couple questions I need help with and this seemed like a place where I'd get some help.

I'm loading .44 mag with Cast Performance 300 gr wfngc. Grizzly Cartridge gave me some info to use Starline brass, 18-20 gr H110, & CCI 350 mag primer.

I have two questions:

1. The Boolits have a crimp groove but I can't get the company to give me an OAL. Does it matter of just took crimp into groove and that takes care of OAL?

2. Many say the Lee Factory Crimp die will swag the Boolits but the .430 Boolits diameter on the Cast Performance doesn't seem affected according to my tests. Any advice?

Thanks.

[Thumbcocker]

I have no experience with the FCD so I can't help you there. As to crimping standard practice is to use the crimp groove. You might want to look at similar boolits as pictured in loading manuals for guidance. The big thing is how much space the boolit takes up in the case. You do not mention what you want to load for so that may be a factor. The .44 magnum is an incredibly versatile cartridge.

[jmort]

Overall length can be found in reloading guides or powder manufacturer site. Load up a dummy round at the crimp groove and see if it within specifications, it probably will be.

The Lee handgun FCD, which is what you have, can swage down over SAAMI spec bullets. Cast bullets are specified at .358" but many guns shoot better with over/under spec bullets.
For revolvers I like to use the Redding Profile crimp die. Try the FCD out and see what happens. It may not even touch the case or swage the bullet you have.

[runningbear44]

I'm loading these for a Ruger Super Blackhawk with a 7.5 barrel. We hunt bear with Hounds. Shots in close distances 5-15 yards. Trying to duplicate factory ammo that was once sold by Federal but no longer available.

I can push the Boolits completely through the factory crimp die with my fingers so I'm thinking it couldn't possibly swag them. Right? Wrong?

[runningbear44]

Overall length can be found in reloading guides or powder manufacturer site. Load up a dummy round at the crimp groove and see if it within specifications, it probably will be.

The Lee handgun FCD, which is what you have, can swage down over SAAMI spec bullets. Cast bullets are specified at .358" but many guns shoot better with over/under spec bullets.
For revolvers I like to use the Redding Profile crimp die. Try the FCD out and see what happens. It may not even touch the case or swage the bullet you have.

jmort,

I did a dummy round with the Lee FCD. It's seems fine to me but I've read so much stuff on the internet about it swagging Cast bullets that it's got me spooked that I'm missing something.

[Guesser]

I've loaded many thousands of the CP product in many cartridges, that's when CP was in Riverton Wy. and I could drive to the plant in a couple hours. Use the crimp groove and you shouldn't find any need for the Lee crimp die. The magazine format Hodgdon load guides have data using the CP style bullets. H-110 is good and the 350 primer is a plus. I know the bullets are expensive but you need to load and test, load and test. Good luck and good shooting!!

[stubert]

If loading for a Ruger, set your oal at 1.7"with 20-21 grains of 296 or 110. It will be a thumper. That is my load 20.8 gr. 296, mag. primer, starline cases, oal 1.7, only difference is I am loading the Lee 430-310 gc.

[RobS]

The straight wall Lee FCD's such as what you are using can swage down the diameter of cast boolit depending on the die itself. I've worked with a few different 45 ACP FCD's and they would all swage down a softer .452 boolit to .451 or smaller with two of the dies working things down to .450. These dies were designed for jacketed bullets. The 45 Colt FCD I own is just fine and with a seated .452-.454 boolit with mild flare on the case nothing even touches the carbide ring when entering the die. It just depends on the die. Also I've noted that a hard boolit can spring back very similar to lube/sizing harder boolits vs softer ones. As an example the same lube/sizing die (lets say a .452 die) with an as cast .454, 12 BHN boolit will size differently than a .454, 25 BHN boolit when each though the .452 sizing/lube die.

[44man]

That is a good boolit. I always bought the 320 gr.
With the 320 and 310 Lee, I use 21.5 gr of 296 but I use only a Fed 150 standard primer in all .44 loads.
Make sure there are no dogs on the other side of a bear, you will not stop that boolit.
If boolits slide through the Redding crimp die, use it and crimp in the crimp groove, ignore OAL stuff. I would not use a FCD.
I roll crimp with my seat dies, as I seat. No need for a separate step.

[pmer]

I second doing away with the Lee FCD. I have one but haven't used it for years. Use your data for 19-20 grains and OAL isn't as big of a deal because internal case volume based from the crimp grove to the base of the boolit is what they are thinking of. I would seat and crimp separately this way you can watch for lead shavings (or ring) ending up in the crimp grove. Seat till the edge of the case is near the top side of the crimp grove for all of your rounds then adjust your seater die down to crimp the case to the boolit with the seater stem backed out. Those shavings can end up in the bore and cause leading and accuracy troubles. At least till you get a better feel for loading process.

If you see lead build up there is a product in the grocery store cleaning section called Choreboy. It's a copper scouring pad, you can take a chunk off the pad and wrap it around a brush and quickly remove lead build up.

Cylinder pressure - if your fired cases come out hard you should back down your charges. If most of the 6 fall or drop out you could maybe go up some.

Lastly welcome and hoping to see some bear pictures in the hunting section.

[reddog81]

I don't think the .44 Mag Lee FCD would resize the case like the FCD does on 9mm, 45 ACP, 40 S&W. The Lee seating/crimp die I use for does not resize the case. The bullet is seated and a roll crimp is applied during the final bit of travel. The die does not touch the case other than to apply the roll crimp. As far as a know this is how any Lee die would operate for revolver cartridges.

[Hickok]

I'm loading these for a Ruger Super Blackhawk with a 7.5 barrel. We hunt bear with Hounds. Shots in close distances 5-15 yards. Trying to duplicate factory ammo that was once sold by Federal but no longer available.

I can push the Boolits completely through the factory crimp die with my fingers so I'm thinking it couldn't possibly swag them. Right? Wrong?

You wont having any problem with that boolit on bear. The Keith 250 SWC @ 1300fps will blow clear through black bears shoulders and out the other side. Have a friend who wades in on bear at point blank range when hunting with dogs and he has only recovered one Keith boolit. He shot the bear head on near the neck and found the boolit under the hide in a rear ham.

[runningbear44]

I talked to a customer service guy at Lee. He said the only way the FCD would swag a bullet is if it was above normal specs. So, with limited knowledge I I'm not sure what the trouble that so many on the internet are pointing out.

Thanks for all the responses & info.

[jmort]

A couple things bear repeating in this thread. There are two types of Lee FCD, the "handgun" dies which can swage a cast bullet and the rifle FCDs which have a collet and will not do so. As an example, there was a thread recently about a "universal" sized 9mm cast bullet, and some were going with .358 for their guns. The Lee 9mm FCD would probably swage that bullet down as 9mm "spec" is .355"
So it just depends. As noted above, revolver FCDs seem to be less of an issue. Semi-auto FCD more so. Some people just avoid them with cast or altogether. If the FCD is not squeezing your dummy round, you will have no problem with it. But that is a factory cast bullet. If you start casting, you may find that a wider bullet works better in a particular gun, and then the FCD may be a problem.

[glockky]

The lee factory crimp die works great once you knock the carbide sizer ring out of the bottom of the die. It's been a great solution for loading .434 bullets in 44 magnum. My redding profile crimp dies work great as long as your only a couple thousandths above jacketed diameter bullets.

[rintinglen]

I have loaded tens of thousands of 38 Specials using the Lee FCD and a fair few 44 mags. I have not had any problems, and consider it essential if you are loading untrimmed, mixed head case ammunition. I have also used it on 9mm, though there I can't give it an unqualified thumbs up. The tapered 9mm case doesn't seem to work as well. I doubt you will experience any problems in your 44 mag loading due to use of an FCD.
However, if all your brass is of the same manufacturer and length, you do not need an FCD. The standard crimp die that comes with your die set will work just fine. The FCD lets you use brass of varying length without the necessity of trimming.

[runningbear44]

The man I spoke with at Grizzly Cartridge (Cast Performance) said 18-20gr of H110. But it seems some folks who post loads on the internet go as high as 22.5gr. Would those of you with experience start lower & work up or just go with 20gr?

[runningbear44]

Well I loaded the 1st batch with 19gr. Feeling sort of accomplished to have fired the first six rounds I ever loaded. Ha-ha. I've been getting things together for about 5 months. So, I'll get serious and do some fine tuning now.

[wv109323]

The rule of thumb is to back off 10% and work your way up, BUT Winchester with WW296 powder cautions you not to reduce loads. Correct me or check me out H-110 and WW296 are the same powder sold by two different companies.
Winchester advises Magnum Primers with this powder, one of a few that Winchester uses magnum primers with. I would stay with Magnum primers.
I would find load data with this powder with this bullet. The depth of the bullet(OAL) in the case will affect pressures. Most data should use the crimping groove depth and I would use the crimping groove if the cartridge will fit the chamber.
No one has mentioned this about the crimp. However you do it you want to make sure the bullets will not move when the pistol is fired. If the crimp is insufficient the bullet will move and may not allow the cylinder to rotate.(Another reason to use the crimping groove) That is something I would not want when shooting a bear.

[44man]

Working 296 with--AGAIN, a standard primer. I got sad groups then they tightened as I worked up to 21.5 gr and then they started to open again. They opened at the same rate as they closed up so 21.5 gr is where I am, never more. I do not need more velocity.
There is never a need to go past accuracy in the .44.
Now a 265 RD uses 22 gr and my 330 gr uses 21 gr. A 240 Hornady SIL bullet wants 23.5 while a 240 XTP wants 24. A 300 XTP is best with 20.5 gr.
There is no need whatsoever for a mag primer in a .44 with any load.
I suppose I have done a thousand primer tests over the years. I use what I use because it works.
Crimp will NEVER save you, means so little it is a joke. A thousand crimp tests have been done too. Get tension right and just use a normal roll crimp to reach the bottom of the crimp groove.
No proof has ever been shown you need to crimp separate. I can't prove it at all.
If you have a FCD that makes the stabs in the brass, you ruin a boolit on exit. If a carbide ring, find a field where you don't hit anything when you throw it. A Lee seat die should do all you need.