muzzleloader "purists "

[Good Cheer]

No cap or primer would be the way to go.
Maybe have a three weekend long period at seasons end when arms that use caps or primers are allowed, right after the steampunk handicap season.
That way the 300 Mag and other in-line hunters could mop up with the extended reach.
But hey, I've been a productive member of society and therefore do not get to make the rules, so the status quo is not in danger.

[Gtek]

But what if your Model-T kicked back on you and damaged your rock lock thumb?

[waksupi]

I know Montana did his first muzzleloading restricted area and 1950s for the bitterroots.
My late uncle was involved drafting that one.
I don't believe Montana has Muzzleloading specialty seasons? Aren't they just within firearm restrictive units

When Ethel Harding was still a state representative, she came to us to codify the laws for the state, as it was growing in popularity. You are correct that they are used in restricted areas, but are allowed in all areas.

[Sharpsman]

If anyone desires blackpowder it can come from these sources. Can be delivered to your front door!

http://www.goexpowder.com/distributors.html

Personally I don't give a 'hoot 'n hell' what anyone shoots as long as they're having a good time! As I've grown older I've discovered that doing things the old way appeals to me more than getting caught up in a tech race to keep up with the Jones boys! Forty years ago I purchased a .50 TC Hawken model rifle and shot it a while....then let it go to someone that desired it more than I did! Recently the 'urge' struck again and I bought a .54 GRRW Hawken with 1-70" twist and I'm getting back in the game! The younger guys that come into the game with the latest In-Lines MAY....IN TIME....discover that they as well may wish to change over the way our ForeFathers did things but if they don't....I'm gonna keep on having fun doing it my way! We need all the shooters we can get...regardless of what they're shooting!!

[Hang Fire]

...I started with a CVA caplock St. Louis Hawken .50, which we all know isn't a historically correct copy of anything that has ever been found that was actually made by the Hawken brothers. .

I would suggest you do a little historical reading about the Hawken brothers. Their business did not thrive on their big bore mountain rifles alone. They made and relabeled a variety of cheaper firearms (including shotguns) for farmers, local or occasional hunters and etc..

[Lonegun1894]

I know that, Hang Fire, but everything I have found used breech plug with a snail more like the modern TC and Lyman caplocks, while the CVA used a drum, among many other differences. Now general architecture, you're absolutely correct. They made a LOT more than just what they're famous for, and it is very educational and interesting when one really digs into the variety of things they made. Definitely not a "one trick pony" type of shop. But I never found anything that was a exact match in all details, but some came interestingly close.

[Hanshi]

I've been called a "purist" simply because I hunt any and all seasons with (almost exclusively) flintlocks. One of my favorite rifles, though, is a factory percussion in .54; and yes it has killed deer. I don't believe that any possession confers prestige to anyone. Snobbishness in any sport or pastime is uncalled for and causes the "snob" to look/sound ludicrous and laughable. I'm a purist as I gave up modern guns.

My first muzzleloader was acquired 50+ years ago. Only in the past decade and a half have I gone strictly and exclusively BP & muzzleloaders. I use to mix them and rotate modern & primitive. If I am a "purist" it is because flintlocks are all I hunt with; but my percussions also see a lot of exercise on the range and (rarely) in the woods as well. I don't feel handicapped in the woods with modern shooters all around. I chose my own way because I like muzzleloaders; that's it! I also do not dress in any kind of "period" clothing and wear camo like most do. I don't like inlines but do not begrudge them to anybody. I hope they sell a million of them; I just won't buy one.




The challenge is what I like about shooting and hunting with 18th and 19th century technology.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

I would give you my opinion, in plain english, but I would rather not be banned here.

In any sport there are the "traditionalists", who choose to do things the way they were originally practiced. They appreciate the oldtimers and how they did things. They want to replicate those old days, and they work hard to develop the skills.

Then, there are people, as in nearly every walk of life, usually newcomers, who espouse the "If they'da had it, they'da used it..." mentality, want shortcuts, and and would prefer not to have to work to develop the necessary skills.

Let me give you a few examples.

Harley-Davidson owners: not the outlaw clubs, but everyday people who owned them, rode them, and did most of their own maintenance. Then, about twenty years ago, what we refer to as "Rubes", Rich Urban Bikers came along. They all had to have expensive customs, shuddered at the thought of riding them more than a hundred miles, and went to rallies in their custom painted color-coordinated motorhomes with thirty foot trailers, and matching paint bikes. They hit a campground about an hour's ride from the rally, roll the bikes out, and "ride" to the rallies. Then, they make the show, craving attention. HD began offering electric start, mostly for these people who did not know, or want to know about easing a piston up to TDC, and having to be able to actually kickstart a big twin. We call them "Poseurs.".

The "Purists" as you refer to them in muzzleloading, want to reconnect with, in largest numbers, the time frame from 1753 (French&Indian War) to 1787 (Revolutionary War). They spend a lot of time researching those early times, and trying to emulate those early settlers in dress and accoutrements. They have gatherings, and attendees are presumed to have a serious interest in the era, or they would not attend. Most of the ladies hand sew their clothing, and that of their husbands and children. There are tradesmen, who produce all the items that would be found in a colonial home. They do not want corner cutters, and get things the easy, and incorrect way. They have rules; rules that are strictly and purposefully written to make it a time consuming and difficult apprenticeship. They don't care to pander to "wannabes". They make you earn your way into their groups. If you drop out along the way because it is too much like work, they don't care.

I will tell you a personal story about a club I belong to. It's called the United States Army Rangers. It dates back to Rogers Rangers founded by his majesty in 1754. I served in Vietnam from August of 1969 to September of 1971. We have reunions. There are Rangers, from a few honored survivors from Merrill's Marauders of WWII all the way to young men who are on active duty. We are all immediately Brothers In Arms, because of a shared, hard earned experience gaining that coveted Ranger Tab, and serving in the companies. It was a major insult when the Army changed the rules and now allows truck drivers, clerks, cooks, even regular Infantry etc, to besmirch our honor by wearing that black beret. The Rangers switched to a tan colored one. I started in a two-story barracks with 95 other candidates. Every day or two, it seemed there were more empty bunks. By week five's end, the top floor and it's 48 bunks were empty and closed off. I was one of twenty-three to earn the Tab.

If you want something, earn it...

Army Sgt & Airborne Ranger Richard Kayser

[Sharpsman]

And a BIG HOORAH for you Sgt Richard Kayser!!

My CONGRATS!

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

Thanks. I did not intend to get crossways with anyone, including the original poster, but I believe in working for that status you desire.

Take care all, and God Bless us everone...

Rich

[rfd]

I've been called a "purist" simply because I hunt any and all seasons with (almost exclusively) flintlocks. One of my favorite rifles, though, is a factory percussion in .54; and yes it has killed deer. I don't believe that any possession confers prestige to anyone. Snobbishness in any sport or pastime is uncalled for and causes the "snob" to look/sound ludicrous and laughable. I'm a purist as I gave up modern guns.

My first muzzleloader was acquired 50+ years ago. Only in the past decade and a half have I gone strictly and exclusively BP & muzzleloaders. I use to mix them and rotate modern & primitive. If I am a "purist" it is because flintlocks are all I hunt with; but my percussions also see a lot of exercise on the range and (rarely) in the woods as well. I don't feel handicapped in the woods with modern shooters all around. I chose my own way because I like muzzleloaders; that's it! I also do not dress in any kind of "period" clothing and wear camo like most do. I don't like inlines but do not begrudge them to anybody. I hope they sell a million of them; I just won't buy one.

The challenge is what I like about shooting and hunting with 18th and 19th century technology.

huzzah! well said, sir, and i join with you afield and at the range.

[sharps4590]

As this is mostly opinion allow me to offer mine. First off I believe there is a difference between a "purist" and an "elitist". I consider myself a "purist" in several areas, muzzleloaders being one of them. There was an allusion to the "fly fisherman attitude". Well, that is another area I consider myself a purist. As definitions can become hazy it would seem an offer of my understanding of the two terms in order. To me a purist, in these regards, is one who makes a choice to do something in a particular manner and cares not what others do or what they think of the way he or she does things. An elitist would be the snob so many have mentioned. One who not only looks down their nose at what others do if those things differ from "their superior way" and is generally not bashful about expressing their opinions.

I am a purist. I like doing things the older ways. Heck, I even cut a cord or two of my firewood every year with a one man crosscut saw and am known to head for my woods with nothing but that saw and a double bit axe. Most of my muzzleloaders are flintlocks and none of them, percussion or flint, has ever seen a substitute or synthetic black powder, my fly rods are mostly vintage bamboo and I use a silk fly line on them, many of my cartridge firearms are pre-WWI German drillings, combination guns and double rifles chambered in cartridges that haven't seen the light of day in 100 years or more. Several of them are not Nitro proofed and have only seen black powder since I've owned them . I've invested a considerable amount of time, money and effort into learning about all the above and how to make them work successfully. All the above make me smile. Not dissimilar from my choice of music, big band from the 30's, 40's and early 50's.

Now, that's me. Do I consider myself superior to any? Good grief no! If it's legal and it makes you smile, go for it, I could care less other than to be glad for you. What does get my hackles up is when someone looks at what I'm shooting or fishing with and implies that "oh, you're one of those guys". Now how could they possibly know that simply by the equipment I use? I do resent that implication. To say such a thing puts them into the same category as those they accuse me of being, an elitist.

When it comes to entering a match of any kind. The rules are there. Abide by them or don't shoot. It's nothing to get your shorts in wad over or resent because they won't let you play your way. Everyone is subject to the same rules.

So there is my thoughts. I'm neither a snob nor an elitist but, I do take quite a bit of pride in being what I consider a "purist"...for my own satisfaction, not yours. If "you" are enjoying yourself doing your thing I am very glad for you.

[rfd]

huzzah! to you, too, sharps4590

[izzyjoe]

Idaho sharpshooter, that was a great post, and thank you for your service to this country! I don't know why everybody can't get a long and have fun like we are supposed to do, but that is way it is, and personally I don't care what other folks do with there time, and money that's their business, I have shot both side locks, and in lines, and I prefer a side lock, but that's what I like. Sometimes at the range if someone is having trouble with a inline ,or sidelock l'll ask if they need help, if they say no, I figure that have it covered and go about shooting, but if they say yes l'll offer to show them what works for me, and down talk them on what they are doing wrong. It's all about having fun, and shooting anything without having trouble is fun. I have found out for myself a lot about muzzleloading, and what works and what doesn't. Pyrodex and 777 are what's available my area, so I've learned to use them and live with them, but one day I was out of town and found some goex, and have never look back. Nothing wrong with the others, but I found out what works for me. I hunt for meat, and enjoy using my T/C hawken, and even though it's old and ugly it serves its purpose each year for me. Have great day, Peace!

[mooman76]

Idaho Sharpshooter, I know what you mean about the Beret. When in the AF we were trying to get a Ammo badge pushed through specifically for members that worked directly with ammunition. Someone got word and turned it into a Munitions Maintenance badge meaning anyone that worked Munitions or maintenance (close to 50%)got the badge. Give it to everyone and it looses its meaning. Not as prestigious as yours of coarse but I get what you mean.

I don't call myself a purist, not even close but I too like the old ways. I just think some of the purists go too far in their thinking. It can go on forever in the way you think but in some ways we are still tied to the modern world. I like to shoot my sidelocks. mostly percussion but when I get more time I want to start getting into flintlock more and hopefully get into a club. I was in a club for awhile but being in the military at the time, I moved to another place. club here so I just shoot when I can.

[Skypilot39b]

As this is mostly opinion allow me to offer mine. First off I believe there is a difference between a "purist" and an "elitist". I consider myself a "purist" in several areas, muzzleloaders being one of them. There was an allusion to the "fly fisherman attitude". Well, that is another area I consider myself a purist. As definitions can become hazy it would seem an offer of my understanding of the two terms in order. To me a purist, in these regards, is one who makes a choice to do something in a particular manner and cares not what others do or what they think of the way he or she does things. An elitist would be the snob so many have mentioned. One who not only looks down their nose at what others do if those things differ from "their superior way" and is generally not bashful about expressing their opinions.

I am a purist. I like doing things the older ways. Heck, I even cut a cord or two of my firewood every year with a one man crosscut saw and am known to head for my woods with nothing but that saw and a double bit axe. Most of my muzzleloaders are flintlocks and none of them, percussion or flint, has ever seen a substitute or synthetic black powder, my fly rods are mostly vintage bamboo and I use a silk fly line on them, many of my cartridge firearms are pre-WWI German drillings, combination guns and double rifles chambered in cartridges that haven't seen the light of day in 100 years or more. Several of them are not Nitro proofed and have only seen black powder since I've owned them . I've invested a considerable amount of time, money and effort into learning about all the above and how to make them work successfully. All the above make me smile. Not dissimilar from my choice of music, big band from the 30's, 40's and early 50's.

Now, that's me. Do I consider myself superior to any? Good grief no! If it's legal and it makes you smile, go for it, I could care less other than to be glad for you. What does get my hackles up is when someone looks at what I'm shooting or fishing with and implies that "oh, you're one of those guys". Now how could they possibly know that simply by the equipment I use? I do resent that implication. To say such a thing puts them into the same category as those they accuse me of being, an elitist.

When it comes to entering a match of any kind. The rules are there. Abide by them or don't shoot. It's nothing to get your shorts in wad over or resent because they won't let you play your way. Everyone is subject to the same rules.

So there is my thoughts. I'm neither a snob nor an elitist but, I do take quite a bit of pride in being what I consider a "purist"...for my own satisfaction, not yours. If "you" are enjoying yourself doing your thing I am very glad for you.

As it should be, enjoy what you enjoy, allow others to enjoy what they enjoy, share your knowledge with those who are interested and learn from others what they have to offer....it makes life MUCH simpler

[Newtire]

I think the post about being either a purist or an elitist hits the nail on the head. Glad to have the company of a few fellow travellers who don't really care how many Boone & Crocett elk you shoot each year and are just fun to hang out with. I consider myself lucky that way. I do appreciate those who perpetuate the originality of things but just can't abide having their beliefs rammed down my throat.

[jjarrell]

Im new to this site but have been muzzleloading for many years. I could care less about the "purist" if there truly is such a thing. Or the modern "muzzleloader". Shoot what you like. If its an inline, so be it.............."Jump in the truck and lets go, its almost daylight and we are late for the woods!"................. Ill tell you all right here and now. I LOVE T/C rifles. Mostly I think, because a Thompson Center Hawken was what my dad decided to get me for Christmas way back when. MY DAD WAS AND STILL IS MY HERO AND I'M OLD. They are damn fine rifles. I have a few with high end custom barrels and a few that are bone stock. All T/Cs. I prefer the sidelock or flinter to others, but what I like should in no way have any bearing on what someone else chooses. I also prefer my rifles to be blued...............guess why. That's what I like that's why. BTW.........browning a barrel isn't authentic either. Check your history. Browning and blueing were luxuries that most could not afford. Most were in the white. They were browned by time and use. We need to be tolerant of each other and quit putting people down for not liking exactly what YOU think they should. To the "purist", it smells the same as anyone else when you take a dump. To the "modern" muzzleloader, sidelocks aren't outdated. Me and my custom 36" Howard Kelly barreled, 1:72 twist .54 cal T/C Hawken will put them through the same hole for as long as my shoulder can take it, and blow the pants off both the "purist" and the "modern" shooter with roundballs. Im not a purist or a modern shooter...............so where do I fit in? If we don't stop this foolishness. All the organizations that are trying to stomp out hunting, and the shooting sports that we all love so dearly will prevail. Who are you going to bitch about when that happens. JMO

[hpdrifter]

i just dont see much difference between a scoped modern muzzleloader and modern center fire.

to each his own.

[Good Cheer]

Purist is pointless in my book but why let percussion rifles (.45's, .54's, .30-06's) have an entire season?