Loading black?

[barnaclebill]

Thanks for the quick replies. I will start putting supplies together and get back but I am sure to have more questions soon, I also did find some brass at the TRACK OF THE WOLF

?????????
"First slug the bores in your guns. Record those numbers in your load log book. At least the groove diameter should be recorded. You want bullets from groove diameter to about .002 larger than goove diameter."

Does this mean the same as making a metal cast of the chamber with low temp casting metal? Georga is sort of close and maybe I will visit and bring the Evan Williams, never had it !whatever it is. I live in SE Florida but from Seattle.
Thanks again---I knew this was a good place to start.

[Black Prince]

Bbill

BEFORE YOU GO ANY FURTHER, get yourself a good loading manual. Better yet, get about four or five. If you can find one, I suggest Lyman No. 47. The new No. 48 is not as good in explaining all you need to know to go where you want to go IN MY OPINION. But if a No. 48 is all you can find, get it. Lyman does the best job of over all explaining the loading process IN MY OPINION. Lyman also publishes a black powder manual. I have it, but it mostly deals with muzzle loading and does not have a lot of BP cartridge information in it. There are other reference materials out there such as the whole series of books by Paul Matthews. Mike Venturino and Steve Garbe also have an excellent BP Cartridge loading manual and primer. Find them and read them FIRST.

There are about as many different approaches to do what you need to do as there are guys on this forum. Probably all of them will work, but some may be contidictory and that will cause you to question what you are doing. You don't need that. A good manual has been checked by several different technical writers and they have all passed on what the manual says. They have also passed it by the lawyers, so whatever you read is going to be conservative, and you want to be.

That is NOT TO MEAN that these guys here, myself included, can not give you dam good advice on how to do this stuff. What I'm trying to say is that we all have our own way of doing many of these things and our own opinions and sometimes we can confuse someone who does not know or understand all the technical mumbo jumbo we all like to use. And, of course, my way is always better than what someone else is doing because if his way was better, I'd be doing it that way.

AFTER you read information in a manual that you trust and still have a question about what it says, THEN come here and ask. Likely everybody here can assist you in understanding what the manual is saying and by sticking to just explaining that one area, we won't get off on tangents like we are bad to do and confusticate you all to hell and gone.

Don't just jump in and do something. By using the wrong tools, materials and techniques, you could damage your barrel trying to drive a slug through it. READ the proper way first in a good manual. Ask the boys here about it. We have all done it, and we probably have used several different methods. I for example, ONLY USE WOOD dowell rods to drive dead soft round balls down my pre-lubed barrel and do not take any chance on damaging it, but others use metal rods and longer slugs very successfully. If you ask how to do that here and get different answers, it may create doubt in your mind and you don't need that.

This is fun and interesting stuff, but there are some basic ways of doing things that can keep you out of trouble and prevent problems from ever coming up in the first place. There are steps that should be done first, and second and so on. Learn what they are and then do them in the proper order. Everybody here will help you, but sometimes we like our own way better than some other way. I don't want you to get started on my way when there may be a better way for you. So get started right and enjoy the process. Shout out here when you need help.

I was of course, just pulling your leg about the booze. I don't use it. It's all I can do to get things right without that stuff screwing up my head.

[405]

Thanks for the quick replies. I will start putting supplies together and get back but I am sure to have more questions soon, I also did find some brass at the TRACK OF THE WOLF

?????????
"First slug the bores in your guns. Record those numbers in your load log book. At least the groove diameter should be recorded. You want bullets from groove diameter to about .002 larger than goove diameter."

Does this mean the same as making a metal cast of the chamber with low temp casting metal? Georga is sort of close and maybe I will visit and bring the Evan Williams, never had it !whatever it is. I live in SE Florida but from Seattle.
Thanks again---I knew this was a good place to start.

bbill,
Track o' Wolf is a pretty good supply source- have used them for certain brass and some frontstuffer parts.

Slugging is really very easy and since you have muzzleloader experience may have some slugs already. Simply as I can describe it. Here goes:

For each gun get a very soft (pure lead is best) slug or even round ball a few thousandths over your bore diameter. For example: for the 45 cals a .490" roundball is ideal. Even soft lead fishing egg sinkers work! Get a brass drift punch or short brass rod that is maybe .30" diameter, a longer than barrel length brass or steel rod about .30" diameter. A plastic or hard composite or even hardwood mallet, a spent pistol case that is smaller than bore diameter that will fit over end of long rod. You'll want to put several wraps of masking tape around long rod about every foot or so to keep the rod from contacting the inside of bore.

Lube the bore and lead ball with oil. Place gun in vertical position muzzle up. Place lead ball on muzzle crown. Slowly drive ball into muzzle with mallet until almost flush. You'll end up with a slug entering the bore and a "washer" of excess lead on muzzle face. No problem- leave the washer there for now. Take short starter brass rod and place in center of slug and drive farther into bore. Take long rod with the pistol case on end and insert into muzzle and drive the slug the rest of the way thru until it pops into the chamber. Measure, with caliper or mic, the diameter of the raised rifling on the slug- that is the groove diameter of the bore.

Can't over-emphasize the importance of having that groove diameter recorded for each gun. For best chance of good accuracy and minimal leading with cast bullets they should be somewhere from barrel groove diameter to about .002" over groove diameter.

The thing your were talking about with the casting is for measuring the exact dimensions of the chamber. That may or may not be necessary but usually is done to trouble shoot certain problems later on if needed.

Hope that helps

[August]

I lived in Port Orford for many years. There is one (1) arrow shaft factory making shafts out of Port Orford Cedar, it is in Myrtle Point. All the shafts made in the sole Port Orford Cedar Shaft factory in the western world are the same diameter. They only have one size knife on their shaper.

They are hand splined for stiffness. The stiffness varies as the result of the location in the tree where the arrows come from (among other natural phenomena).

Sorry I don't know nothin' about no space age, alloy, aluminum tubes that might be shot out of a bow. Never had no reason to use 'em.

[barnaclebill]

The first time around I plan on buying 40 loaded bullets from Buffalo $170 whew!!!!
Then I will reload the brass. My Question is---How many times can Brass be reloaded if it is cared for after shooting BP? takes my bill at Buffalo up to $600 so far. The $140 leather Cartridge belt for the 45-120 sort of ruined the pocket book a little but hey! Can't take it with you and more fun than having a CD at the bank.

Does the Lyman die set also seat the Primer?

Can Primers not be ordered online?

Recommended Black Powder ? for the 45-120 and 50-90 .

I can't find a Moose to milk here in Florida. maybe someone in Alaska can help me out. Will Alligator milk work? I have one of those in my pond.

Thanks again
Barnacle Bill

[Black Prince]

Bbill

Dang it man, yew gittin' tha cart afore tha dern horse. Primers are seated either with one of the several hand tools out there, or on your press. Depends on what press you have as to how that'll work. If you want to start off easy, get a Lyman 310 tool and die set. You will use a die in the set to seat primers there and it loads some dam good ammo too! Get yerself a copy of Venturino and Garbe's BP Cartridge Primer. The manuals are cheap and easy to read. You'll know the answer to most of these questions in about an hour's worth of reading. The manual even has picters. THASS why I like it cause I can't reed gud ya see?

Yes. Powder can be ordered on-line. I suggest you start with Goex cartridge grade FF-G or Swiss 1.5 powder. I use Swiss, but some people say it is over priced. It works for me , so I use it. There will be a 20 dollar Hazmat fee for each powder order so get a bunch when you get it. Same deal on primers ordered on-line.

Brass will last depending on how you treat it. If you don't bell the case mouth too much and shoot mild loads, it'll last longer than if you shoot hot loads and bell a lot. You can always aneal (soften) the case mouths and help prevent split necks and thus make them last longer. Just as a didja know, I've had more trouble with nickle plated cases splitting, some on the very first loading, than I have had with brass cases. Doan know if that has anything to do with the plating process, or it was a hard batch of brass, but I had five or six split out of a hundred last batch I got from Starline. But I LIKE nickle cases cause they are purdy and they don't tarnish quick like brass. Whatever floats yer boat.

BTW, I had Moose milk on my oatmeal up here on the mountain in north Georgia this morning. Didja know them suckers is hard to milk?

[405]

barnacle,
The moose milk is easy. Getting the moose to stand still is the hard part!

Several of the online shooting supply stores like Midway, etc. sell Ballistol. It is a water soluble oil. Been around since WWI. Get a handy size plastic bottle or squeeze bottle with spout- anything that makes it easy to apply to patches for cleaning. Fill about 1/4 of bottle with Ballistol. Fill the rest with water.... presto! moose milk

Ballistol is fairly cheap and when mixed with water way cheaper than similar store bought pre-mixed BP solvents. Very good for on-the-range bore swabbing. It also helps delay, prevent or neutralize BP residue corrosion. Then when back home the bore should be cleaned normally and oiled. BTW also works very well for regular muzzleloader swabbing.

Others have used various mixes of vinegar, ammonia, Simple Green, soap, etc. with water for the same purpose. I've used moose milk for a long time, it works so have stuck with it.

[Black Prince]

Well now by golly, THERE is something that a buncha these guys will likely agree with. That Balistol stuff if great. Smells kinda funny, but does a good job. Makes oatmeal taste different too.

[barnaclebill]

While I was going through my Muzzle loading supplies last time in Seattle I came across a pint of oil that an old timer gave me in 1966 for soaking my patches after I built my first and last Kentucky long Rifle from scratch---It is "Sperm Whale Brain Oil". Now ain't that a kick. pre Whaling bans oil. Now that must be a valuable oil for very original shooting. The plating process will cause the case to crack easier--been there , done that. But they really do look cool.

Do the Lyman die sets include the primer insertion tool for using on a press?. They did not indicate at Buffalo if it was.

Books are on the way so in the meantime I must just ramble along asking dumb questions.

[Black Prince]

Partner, the only dumb question is the one you don't ask and then screw something up because you didn't ask.

Primer seating is done on your press with the primer arm or whatever set-up it uses. It is not a function of the die except on the 310 tool, and even then, it ain't exactly what you'd call a die. Don't worry about that. Most presses come either with a primer seater of some kind or another, or they come with an independant priming tool such as with some Lee presses. I use an old Lyman All American or a Dillion press 550-B as upgraded. Both have priming capability on the PRESS; it is not in the die. Many people like the independent priming tools made by just about everybody from RCBS to Lee. I just use the one on the press because that's what I've always done and have never had any problems. If it ain't broke, I ain't gonna fix it. You are sweating the small stuff because you don't know how it works. Once you read the manual, or the press instructions and look at the photos, and do it one time, you'll say, there is nothing to this.

BTW, what kind of press (which model) did you get? Did you get a sliding collar competetion bullet seating die? They come in handy with the longer straight (thin walled) cases and help support the case when the bullet is seated and thus help prevent crushing the case. May not ever be a problem, but a competition type die just prevents that in the first place.

Yew gonna have fun I can tell. Once yew start breathing that BP smoke, yew is gonna be hooked fer good!

An uhhh, can you spare a couple ah drops of that brain oil? My brain ain't working rite anymore and I jiss thought if I could put a little oil on tha machinery, it might . . . aww never mind. I'll just use moose milk.

[montana_charlie]

BaracleBill,
Feeling that you are in competent hands, I didn't intend to intrude. However, I have been reading along, and an 'inconsistency' has appeared that may deserve mention.

First you said...

I also have a total lack of reloading equipment as I have only fired Muzzle loaders in recent years.

Then you amplified on your caliber(s) by saying a couple of things...

The $140 leather Cartridge belt for the 45-120 sort of ruined the pocket book a little but hey! Can't take it with you and more fun than having a CD at the bank.

Recommended Black Powder ? for the 45-120 and 50-90 .

then, Black Prince made this recommendation...

If you want to start off easy, get a Lyman 310 tool and die set. You will use a die in the set to seat primers there and it loads some dam good ammo too!

That prompts me to say that the Lyman 310 tool may not be able to handle cartridges as long as yours.
I started reloading with the Lyman 310, and like it as a portable loader. But, the Lee hand press seems more 'flexible' because it uses standard dies.
However, I don't know if (even) the Lee will take .45/120.
A good many bench-mounted presses won't...
CM

[405]

Not directly related to the BPCR reloading but holy cow! That stuff is rare, rare rare. Guard it or lock in a safe break out for special occasions only.

[Black Prince]

I use the Lyman 310 with my 40-65 with no problems, but checked here http://www.cnyauctions.com/the310shop.htm to see if you can get a die set for 45-120. They have die sets for the 50-90 and the 50-110, but I don't see them for 45-120 and that may be because it is too long. It may also be because they don't have 45-120 dies. Anyone interested can give'm a call and find out. I didn't think about how long that 45-120 case is when I suggested the 310.

That goes back to what I said earlier: I was only thinking about what I do and how I do it, and had completely forgotten that you are shooting a 45-120. That is why it is always good to have as many eyes on this stuff as we have here. The high detail people will spot things like that and I won't see it. They keep us straight and out of trouble most of the time, but I can't remember what I had for breakfast this morning.

[barnaclebill]

I was going to order the Lyman Orange Crusher II press, 4 1/2" opening for the 3 1/4" 45-120.
Also ordering the Lyman LYM7460506 and Lyman LYM7460499 dies for the 45-120 and 50-90. from Buffalo Arms. It appears that these are new products from them.
This is Buffalo Arms Description of the die.

45X3 1/4" Sharps Lyman Die Set
Reloading Dies / .42-.45 Caliber
Item #: LYM7460506
$46.39 / Each

Nostalgia is bigger than ever within the shooting sports. There are many fine Sharps and Highwall rifles on the market in a variety of calibers fueling this interest. The one problem that has faced reloaders of many of the Sharps calibers, however, has been the cost and availability of properly dimensioned reloading dies.Lyman has now eliminated this problem with the introduction of our Classic Rifle Die Sets. These standard 7/8" x 14 3-die sets will fit most brands of reloading presses and include Lymans popular "M" neck expanding die.

[405]

barnacle,
You betcha! You are starting off right with the good equipment! That press with the dies you ordered will serve you well. Once you get firing the smoke then you'll have to watch all the little details, re-adjust components, techniques and so on to get the kind of performance and accuracy those guns are capable of. It can get frustrating at times. Most of us who shoot them are continually tinkering and trying for the impossible- the perfect load. If the Sharps are modern repros and depending upon the makes- your bore and groove diameters should be pretty close to standard specs. That trapdoor is another matter if it has the original barrel. They can have groove diameters from +/- .458 to well over .461. Trying to shoot a standard .457 or .458 cast bullet out of an over-sized trapdoor bore can be extremely frustrating. Likely very inaccurate and big leading potential. On the other hand if the bore is not like the inside of a sewer pipe and the bullet is correct diameter for the bore.... they can be scary accurate.

badgeredd,
We kind of hijacked your thread- hope some info here applies to your questions also

[barnaclebill]

Thanks again for the inputs-All helps

All the Sharps and trapdoors are original. When I was in my more stupid days I fired Standard 45-70 cartridges from the trapdoor and about ruined my ears. The trapdoor is like new and had never been fired when I got it as a kid. The Sharps are all in extremely fine condition. The 45-120 Sharps barrel is 1 1/4" across the flats so it will not blow up anytime soon. In the past I would not fire all the really old rare guns but now since I decided not to sell any of them I will just go shoot them and collect more since I ended up hating the stock market and interest rates are in the toilet. Can't take them with me and whoever gets them when I am gone can deal with ?????decreased value?????by firing them. What good is a fine rifle if you cannot use it. After seeing Quigley Down Under I just knew what my next Rifle would be. I stopped at an estate auction the other day and bought a US 1847 [replica ] Colt 44 Walker ...What a quick way to dump a can of Black powder. Anyway sorry for the rambling but hey---At least I'm talking BP. if I get out of line just let me know.
Thanks Again.
BB

[Black Prince]

Wal yew jiss keep on talkin' Bbill cause yew talkin' our kinda talk. Original Springfields, Sharps, and Colts!! Man it muss be nice to have money!!

But you are right on the money with shooting those fine firearms. If you are not an investment collector, you might as well shoot them. And we will do everything we can to help you do it correctly so you don't do anything to harm them or YOU.

As you can already see, these boys are plenty sharp. With the stuff you have ordered, you will be making fine smelling smoke in no time. Are you going to buy or cast your bullets? If you are not going to shoot a lot, buying bullets is okay. If you are going to shoot, you might be better off casting your own and that is another ball game into itself.

But not to worry, these boys do that too and they know their stuff. This hobby can occupy your entire day if you have the time and money to do that. It's never dull and it's about as much fun as a man can have with his pants on.

Come to think about that, I ain't never tried to shoot with my pants off. Hell, it might be as much fun as a fella can have with his pants off and without all the baggage that comes with other types of fun while in that situation. It'll dam shore be less expensive!

[barnaclebill]

[QUOTE=Black Prince;338280]Wal yew jiss keep on talkin' Bbill cause yew talkin' our kinda talk. Original Springfields, Sharps, and Colts!! Man it muss be nice to have money!!

But you are right on the money with shooting those fine firearms. If you are not an investment collector, you might as well shoot them. And we will do everything we can to help you do it correctly so you don't do anything to harm them or YOU.
Are you going to buy or cast your bullets? If you are not going to shoot a lot, buying bullets is okay. If you are going to shoot, you might be better off casting your own and that is another ball game into itself.]

Many of my old guns were purchased as a kid after I got out of the Navy in 1966. I just bought what I liked the looks of and BIG. I happened to buy some guns that really got pretty rare like Winchester 73s, Spencer, Blunderbusses, and just lots of BIG caliber Rifles. I still do not have a Henry but $35,000-$100,000 Forget it. !!!!I usually could not afford much more than $100 and had to think serious about that. I still have almost all the guns I bought as a kid. Regret the ones I sold.

I plan to cast my own bullets cause I just like to do that sort of stuff. I presume the same mold would work for the 45-120 and the 45-70? haven't put together a shopping list for that stuff yet but I will be asking.

Thanks

BB

PS---How do you do a quote with just part of a posting?

[405]

barnacle,
Those here, inclined to enjoy shooting and admiring the old originals, are maybe as excited about this as you are. I am anyway. I think it's a great priviledge to be able to shoot an original Sharps much like the feeling of shooting an original Hawken or fine original longrifle!

So, for sure slug those bores. I've slugged/measured quite a few old, original bores and any barrel 130 + years old may have some odd dimensions. Shooting regular cast even if undersized over BP if loaded right and cleaned right won't hurt them at all. But for the best accuracy and a better idea of their real potential, using the right bullet of the right diameter can help a lot. BP can obturate or bump up undersized, fairly soft bullets but how well that translates into accuracy is iffy- at least I've found that to be the case. Seems much easier and less frustrating to start with a bullet that is closer to best guess diameter for bore/groove dimension.
Have fun! and yes at least some of us are a little envious

[badgeredd]

And if one used between 10 and 15 PERCENT of a smokeless powder such as 4227 or RX7, and finished the rest off with 1.5, 2 or 3 FFG, an over powder wad of say .060, and then seated the bullet, you would have a duplex load that will burn the BP charge so clean, with or without compression, ............

Let us know how you come out. BP is fun to shoot and it can also be very accurate. It can make you pull your hair out too, so don't get discouraged trying it. I shoot a 40-65 using duplexed loads and it's a hoot, but it took a lot more effort to get it to shoot than smokeless loads.

........... Flare the case mouth enough so that you do not damage the base when loading. Use a good over powder wad to protect the bullet base. Crimp only enough to remove the flare.

Good luck.

THANK YOU Black Prince!!!!!!!!!!!
I tried your suggestions along with a couple others (each separate from the others) and the duplex is a hoot to shoot and the cleanup is far less a pain. Of course you having a 40-65 sure does help! Thanks again.