Lpoking at compressed powder

[Don McDowell]

It stayed pretty chilly up here, don't know if the highways cleared down below or not... Getting old and scary in my gray haired years I spoze...
That is a fine shooting facility, and as you said good folks.
Thanks a bunch. That will work on transporting the rifle.If we can get that plan to work I'll try and remember to bring that mould along so you can play with it a bit. Hopefully both rifles get done together, and then I'll have a bunch of new load development to do.
I have 5 1/2 lbs of 1 1/2 Swiss left, think I'll see how much of that I can burn up in this 40-70 , when I get enough cases to shoot a match all fireformed.

[Chill Wills]

O' boy Don. The 40-70 SS is a conversation all by itself.

Is yours a rifle that Shiloh is currently building? What twist and which brass is it going to be set up for?

I have a 40-70 SS in a 1877 Sharps rifle and I got it shooting though it was finicky! I have a 1885 Winchester with the same chamber but I never have been happy with how it shoots. Still hopeful about it but it is getting close to wearing a new barrel. Not 40-70 SS.

[Don McDowell]

This is a Hepburn midrange from C Sharps. Brass from Captec (Jamison). Not sure of the twist but I'm betting it's 16. Just had to try it, some shoot relatively well and others not so much. One thing that really perked my interest when reading up on the cartridge, Roberts in his Schuetzen rifle book said the cartridge could be finicky, but would really shoot when the right combination was found.
Would appear to have an "original" chamber in this gun, the Lyman Snover has to be seated to the middle of the driving band to chamber.. Absolutely taking some serious compression to seat those bullets. Have a couple of paper patch bullets loaded, and waiting for Redding to send me a set of the 745 blocks.
Did fire a few rounds loaded with KIK 1.5 and not much compression, fouling was ridiculously heavy at the muzzle, accuracy not so much, and the snow was drizzling in pretty good so I quit with that session.. Maybe get back to more testing on Wednesday.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

An interesting test might be to start with an uncompressed charge. Chronograph it and watch fouling. then increase compression with a inert material cream of wheat, wads, or grex. Things should stay on a level path to the point of over compression. Adding more powder to see compression chaanges is changing 2 things together, The inert filler maintaining the same powder charge might show some interesting things.

I think you have the right approach, but it might also be interesting if an inert substance could be arranged in a compressed charge like powder, to see if it is broken up by the primer impulse. If it is, any effect has been gained purely by adjusting the initial volumetric ratio. It wouldn't be easy, but amateur powdermakers on this website tell how powder has to be very slightly dampened to be compressed into the cakes which are then broken up into grains. The idea is to make those minute saltpeter particles tacky enough to stick together without being dissolved and recrystallized larger.

I see that in those pictures the charges are more compressed at one end (the front?) than at the other, and I doubt if this would be totally consistent. One possibility might be to make a separate die, possibly from a hard plastic block, which you could use to make pellets for insertion in the cartridge. The powdermaking posters sometimes use an engineer's vice, with a piston entering each end, to compress much more than you could do in a reloading press and case. Again, slight damping would be necessary, and steam might be the answer.

The primer flame would be able to get around the sides of this pellet, or you could make a centrally pierced pellet like solid fuel rocket propellant.

I am dubious about how much photographs taken at the muzzle can tell us, unless they are taken by an automatic triggering device like the Camera Axe, which I don't see in these. The appearance can be changed quite a bit by small variations in timing. An alternative might be to try these compressed pellets on thin cards close to the muzzle, and see if anything solid hits them, and size and distance. It might be worth trying this, ahead of a little loose powder in a flintlock, which doesn't have a primer impulse, and see if that makes any difference.

[kokomokid]

Brings to mind the Complete Ignition powder compression system that Buffalo arms sells. Maybe Kurt or Don has tried starting the flame at the bullet base?

[Don McDowell]

I don't think I'll be messing with that Complete Ignition deal, I'm not seeing the need for it.

[Lead pot]

Brings to mind the Complete Ignition powder compression system that Buffalo arms sells. Maybe Kurt or Don has tried starting the flame at the bullet base?

Nah I get along pretty well the way I load now. I keep it simple with out all the tech stuff.
I killed my two chronographs several years ago. I let the holes in the target tell me what my load is doing.

Don. I hear a lot of pro's and negatives about the .40-70's I have nothing but good outcomes with my .40-70 Shiloh with the 1/16 ROT. I'm sure you and the Hep. will come to agreements too. I think it's a good caliber.
I think a lot of problems with the .40-70 starts with trying to us some of the exotic bullets to get a 2" gain of elevation at the 1K line.
Let me know what that Jamison brass does for consistency.
Kurt

[Don McDowell]

Kurt so far that Jamison brass is some really good stuff. Had a little trouble with the rifle that required some adjusting in the trigger and a new main spring, so I shot 5744 loads while working those kinks out. Used the same 5 cases several times and they didn't grow, and cleaned up just like brand new. They got 69 grs of 2f OE and paper patched bullets waiting for their turn at target missing.
Really like the way the rifle handles, sort of reminds me of an old highschool girl friend, not much to look at, but was a heck of a dance pardner...

[Lead pot]

Beauty is only skin deep Don. What I looked at was their finger nails. If they where long and well manicured and polished I ran away from them

[Chill Wills]

Don. I hear a lot of pro's and negatives about the .40-70's I have nothing but good outcomes with my .40-70 Shiloh with the 1/16 ROT. I'm sure you and the Hep. will come to agreements too. I think it's a good caliber.
I think a lot of problems with the .40-70 starts with trying to us some of the exotic bullets to get a 2" gain of elevation at the 1K line.
Kurt

You may be right. A couple things come to mind and I know you know this so I am just flapping my gums for anyone else that cares to read this.

By "exotic bullets" I guess you are talking about the long unsupported nose - high Bc bullet designs. I agree they can be an issue to make shoot straight, especially when used with a large charge of good powder. -High pressure and acceleration-

Hard bullets are often the answer. When shooting grease groove (GG) bullets that is not a problem. I think less experienced shooters start by getting one of the available "DanT MONEY" designs and use the often stated 30-1 or 20-1 lead-tin BPCR alloys and have trouble.

Trying to balance two needs with a paperpatch high Bc design can be tricky. With PP bullets you need to cast soft enough to meet the needs of the rifling and hard enough to hold the nose from slumping and there is a very fine line in between that balances the two alloy hardness demands.
For me, the grease groove bullet is one order of difficulty easier! Especially for Creedmoor matches, I don't need the extra challenge, the match is demanding enough. Especially lately!

You mention your having 'good outcomes' with the Shiloh 40-70 Sharps Straight. I have to say, what ever Shiloh is doing with their chamber design in the 40-70 SS it must be right. I have found of all the riflemen that I have encountered shooting that chambering, it seems the Shiloh owners are happiest with the way their rifles shoot.
My two rifles are based on the shortened Hornady 405 Winchester brass. My Sharps has a GM 14.5 twist rather than the common 16T. It took a little doing to find how to load for it. The Highwall had a Lilja 13 twist installed and that is a work in progress for sometime now. It really acts like it wants to shoot but throws a shot too often to be reliable.

Those high Bc bullets at the 1K line are not really for elevation so much but for windage....
Michael Rix

[Lead pot]

Exotic is really not the best term. But yes the long extended nosed bullets, lets take the money bullet. Some of the MB are designed with a ogive longer then the shank I find is a hard bullet to keep stable at extended ranges. They need a little more rotation then the .45's with a 18 ROT and some are close to 1.5" long with the ogive longer or equal to the length of the shank and this will start the decay faster then say a postell type of ogive. Sort of like a long slender top compared to a short squatty one if you ever played with one when you where a Kid you will know what I'm saying.
That is why you see a lot of .45's on line now days with a 1/16 ROT to keep these stable.
I have moulds of these bullets and I did a lot of testing with them to see what they look like after the powder is set off behind them. Heck last year I reclaimed a whole 5 gallon bucket full of recovered snow bank bullets I shot over many years studding alloys that will hold the integrity of the bullet nose to get the upmost of what that high BC bullet was designed for and to keep it stable at extended ranges.
Your right and wrong with using them with PP. You can make them shoot very well, but you have to temper the alloy and you need to shoot them a little tighter or even larger then bore diameter if you use a harder alloy then 1/20 or you will not get full rotation and loose stability at long rang. Also you need a proper wad stack to hold the gas behind the bullet as it travels own the barrel or you will get gas cuts and a bunch of vertical. Yes you will get gas cuts with PP.
I looked at recovered MB cast with 1/20 alloy that looked like a creedmoor nosed type of bullet. This will still make them fly straight, but I also have seen then with a slumped nose ( bent from torque) an those will dig dirt.
Well I'm not going off on what I have found with the high BC bullets. I shoot them in my .44's but those rifles have a 1/17 and 1/16 ROT and completely different chamber from the normal.
Like what I said. My .40-70 has a 1/16 ROT but the chamber is not what is a standard chamber now use.
My .40 using .405 Hornady brass will not camber a GG bullet. It will just handle a PP .002 max over bore diameter.
Kurt

[Chill Wills]

Kurt, I am not sure agree about your point "That is why you see a lot of .45's on line now days with a 1/16 ROT to keep these stable." I only have what I have observed to go on but this is what I think I know so far.
For the 800 to 1000y matches I have any number of 16t Badger barreled rifle, three 17 twist rifles and some 18 twist. I shoot two versions of the MB in 45. GG bullets. One is Paul Jones first DanT bullet which is tapered and 1.45 long and the other is the same bullet untapered and has full diameter driving bands to the nose. I shoot these bullets in these different twist rifles and most days I can't decide what is best. They all CAN work well on any given day. What I think might be an advantage is on calmer strings the 18T shoots tighter and in twistier gusty conditions the faster twist barrels might hold better. There are trade offs using the 16 if the wind switches keep you shooting on both sides of zero.
I won't even say a word about the PP bullets and will tip my hat to anybody that wants to shoot them in an important event that you drove a long way to compete in. The only time I shoot the pp bullet really well is in the Long Range Muzzle Loaders and for some reason they work well for me and I don't have a lick of trouble.
Michael Rix

[Lead pot]

I shoot a midrange match where a couple guys use a muzzle loader shooting PP an they do a very good job with them.
All my front stuffers, flint and cap are round ball. I have enough parts to build one, but I got those parts a long time ago for that project that I never got too.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

if you need to use a cartridge pusher to load fixed ammo, or even hand chambering rounds with tapered bands and engraving some of them, powder compression might have merit.
this in order to maintain cartridge overall length by stopping the bullet slipping back and compressing the powder.
the same can hold true with 0.001 or so over bore patched bullets.
some compression should be considered using droptubed charges.
the reason is that no one can droptube every column to exactly the same height.
compressing the longer columns will produce ammo the same length.
this then raises the question of whether the compressed charges burn the same as the uncompressed ones?
my 40/72 gives reasonable vert at 1000 yds doing the above, but wondering if it could get better lead to a compression of 0.14" shooting better vert.
benchrest guns can show improved grouping by adjusting seating depth as little as 0.005".
having that much variation +/- from round to round cannot improve grouping.
fortunately swiss seems to work well uncompressed or have nodes as compression increases.
keep safe,
bruce.

[semtav]

I did some limited testing in a known accurate rifle. Zero compression did not work. It took more powder and some compression to equal the velocity and approach the accuracy of my best Swiss loads. I ran low on the sample powder and quit. I made sure the case I received is the same lot number as what I started testing. I have not found the time to pick back up on the load testing yet. The one thing I was hoping was for was that Olde Eynsford would shoot well with out compression. You know what Einstein said about repeatedly doing the same thing over again and expecting a different result? Right?

Equal volume charge loads of Swiss and Olde Eynsford are very different in three ways, charge weight, accuracy and velocity. Even compressed loads of Olde Eynsford have not bested Swiss powder in my experiments to date. Swiss still rules. Perhaps this old dog can still learn a new trick so I will remain open minded to compression loading and see where it takes me with Olde E. Hmmmm.

Michael Rix

Michael
Im surprised zero compression hasn't worked for you but I haven't tried it in any other gun than the 40-65 and haven't shot any more since our conversation last year. I have been told by others that the larger cartridges like the 45-110 don't really care for it. But like you, I've had such good luck with Swiss and so little time to do any testing lately, I haven't had the chance to find out.

Nice days are a premium around here lately and I have way more fun things to do on those days. Now is too dam cold to do any testing.

[Gunlaker]

Interestingly my best results with the 400gr tapered Baco money bullet have been with zero compression and OE 1.5. But, I have not used Swiss in this rifle, just OE 1.5 and Goex FFFg Express. I think Michael's general sentiment about powder is probably pretty smart. i.e. use Swiss powder. I've heard that from other people who are good at this sport too .

I think Swiss it's as close to a sure thing as you can get. I have played with a bunch of powders and a lot of the Goex stuff is really problematic as it changes from lot to lot. I will still fool with some of it on occasion ( I'm playing with a few cans of Shuetzen in a schuetzen rifle ), but with mostly stay with Swiss and OE 1.5. I'd go exclusively with Swiss but it's extremely expensive in Canada.

My Dan T. PP rifle does appear to like OE 1.5 ( with some compression ) but only if I use Kenny W.'s wad stack. Everything else makes fliers. Swiss 1.5 seems the best bet in this rifle.

Chris.