Vintage U.M.C. .45 Colt 28 gr cartridge recreation

[w30wcf]

According to Ned Roberts he shot his Winchester 73 in 44-40 125 shots without cleaning using Curtis and Harvey black. In my article for NCOWS a few years ago I did the field test of the new Marlin Cowboy in 45 Colt and used 30 grains of FFg in different brands and at that time none of them would go more than 15-20 shots without fouling out. Right now I am using Schutzen in my Yellowboy and getting good results out to 20 rounds before I use my pull through.

In 1985 I tested all the powders I could get to try and duplicate Ned's results and couldn't make the grade. I was surprised to find that Dupont powder left a crustier fouling than the more modern GOEX and don't ever try Scottish Meteor powder as it is really crud, I have made better in the basement.

KCSO,
I was wondering if you tested Swiss and or Olde Eynsford in your .45 Colt Marlin Cowboy? I have found that either of those powders did not foul out in my .45 Marlin Cowboy in a box of 50 rounds using the traditional 454190 bullet lubed with SPG.

Where I live, humidity rarely goes below 50%. At the time of my test humidity was in the 60% range which, no doubt helped contribute to no foul out.

I have also used both powders in my .44-40 Marlin Cowboy rifle and I have fired 100 rounds with no foul out using the traditional 427098.

A fellow NRA Cowboy Silhouette shooter told me that he has fired 125 rounds from his 44-40 using Swiss with no loss of accuracy.


w30wcf

[KCSO]

I did the article for the Marlin when they first came out and there was no Swiss or Old E. I haven't had much time lately for either testing or writing. Our humidity here can range for 80% down to desert conditions depending on the time of day it seems like. When I tested I was right at the 50% mark which I thought was a good average. My bullet at that time was and OLD Ideal 255 for the Colt ctg. and it dropped at 457 and had to be sized down for the Marlin. My lube was beeswax and bear oil the same as Ned was using, I thought about using his other lube but I am down to one can of sperm oil left and couldn't bear to use it.

[Savvy Jack]

Any idea on the age of this box? Sold for $11,000...obviously after 1884
http://www.icollector.com/Extremely-...ctio_i10495577

Attachment 174136

[Savvy Jack]

http://www.cartridgecollectors.org/ammunition-catalogs

[bigted]

I must be a glutton for punishment. I load mine with 40 grains of 3F GOEX. I compress the powder and then plop a over powder wad, and a felt wad, lubed with a 40% bees wax 60% tallow mix. I then top it off with a soft cast lee 255 grain boolit.

I havent chrono'd it yet, but boy, you need to hang on. I've found that the lubed felt wad really helps on cutting the fouling.

Ive just recently poured a bunch of dick dastardly big lube boolits but haven't been able to get to the range to test them out.

If if you want an eye opener, try it as old Sam Colt intended!

eye opener indeed. i also loaded 40 grains 2F old E as well as 3F old E and my "felt recoil" in my second gen 7.5 inch Colt put the 2F ahead in power. these loads tho very heavy to shoot put all rounds to point of aim and in general a 1 raged hole at 15 yards for 5 shots. done over and over till i had all 50 shot up. i felt glad to have them shot as they really came to life for me and if i ever want a Magnum 45 Colt load this is exactly what i would shoot .... mine also were loaded with the Lee 255 grain boolit and lubed with SPG.

i will need to try the 28 grain loads with the 1/8th card to compare where on target they will impact compared with those 40 grain loads. id like to develop another load other then the trail boss loads i been shooting as they are very accurate and easy to shoot ... BUT ... they dont smell rite nor do they smoke the rite stuff either.

this is indeed a great thread ... thanks for your time to post it and continue with the history.

so then when did the military have the 40 grain loads and when did they cut em down to this load ... and also how did this all effect the civilian market?

[bigted]

i will humbly add that after going back over the entire thread and reading the add-ons i have my answer for the last of my post. thanks again all for the great info contained here.

[Grapeshot]

I must be a glutton for punishment. I load mine with 40 grains of 3F GOEX. I compress the powder and then plop a over powder wad, and a felt wad, lubed with a 40% bees wax 60% tallow mix. I then top it off with a soft cast lee 255 grain boolit.


I havent chrono'd it yet, but boy, you need to hang on. I've found that the lubed felt wad really helps on cutting the fouling.

Ive just recently poured a bunch of dick dastardly big lube boolits but haven't been able to get to the range to test them out.

If if you want an eye opener, try it as old Sam Colt intended!

I did the same thing several years ago when I shot SASS matches. I dropped a weighed charge of 40 grains of GOEX 2Fg, compressed that, and put a card wad on top of that and used Dick Dastardly's 250 grain Big Lube Boolits in them. Recoil was impressive and the concussion was earth shaking. Most of my fellow shooters backed away from the line when I went to shoot. The Big Lube Boolits really kept the Fouling down and I could shoot a whole match using them and my BP Compatible lubricant.

[17nut]

The reason for old BP to burn "moist" was/is that they charred wood at a lower temperature. That leaves more creosote in the charcoal and that will bind with water.

[Dale53]

I have a Bisley Vaquero that I competed with in both silhouette and target matches for black powder cartridge revolvers (fixed sights were mandated). I ended up using Swiss 3f and Pyrodex (I won several pounds in matches). Both worked well with Lyman's 452664 (250 gr. RF) cast of 30/1 lead/tin and sized .452". My cylinder throats were reamed to .4525". I used a case full (Starline) of powder compressed 1/16th inch when seating the bullet. I used a Lyman powder measure with long drop tube to settle the powder before seating the bullet. Accuracy was quite good, on the order of 1.5-2.0 inches at 25 yards. Velocity was 900 fps+ and recoil was noticably worse than a comparable smokeless load. This is a quite powerful and useful field load with that rather large meplat bullet. I gained LOTS of respect for the original frontier load.

I used a modified Emmerts home mixed lube (50% pure natural beeswax, 40% Crisco, and 10% Anhydrous Lanolin). I could fire 70 shots with my particular revolver before the cylinder started binding from powder fouling. Five minutes cleaning with a good black powder solvent and I was back in business.

FWIW,
Dale53

[1-12 INF]

Washington1331 - I've loaded up 100 of that same load you did. I think I'll save them for the Ruger Vaquero and Uberti 1860 Henry. Some other guys here say that's plenty of lube for a pistol. I'll try the 28-30g charge of FFg Swiss and a 1/8 card next, for an easier shooting load. Hopefully there's enough compression with 30g, the 1/8 card and a 255g projectile in a modern .45 Colt case.

[flint45]

I would like to try some of the old powders to see for myself would be a fun experiment. I have used old Du Pont 3fg and 2fg 1960,s vintage, was very crusty. What we have today is a lot better then that.

[Outpost75]

...so then when did the military have the 40 grain loads and when did they cut em down to this load ... and also how did this all effect the civilian market?

Cross-Posted with Author's Permission From The Fouling Shot:

"The .45 Schofield cartridge dates from 1875 when Major George W. Schofield convinced the U.S. Army that the S&W No. 3 top-break’s simultaneous ejection was faster and easier to manage on horseback than the Colt Single-Action Army’s rod ejection. By 1879 the Army had bought 8289 No. 3 Schofields and by then also realized that having two different .45 revolver cartridges in its supply system was an awkward complication. So, the Schofield cartridge was adopted as the M1887 for interchangeable use in both Smith & Wesson No.3 top-break and Colt Single-Action Army revolvers. The .45 S&W was loaded commercially until just before WW2."

Keith, in Sixguns (1950) stated, “While many soldiers could shoot the Smith & Wesson better, on account of its lighter recoil, the S&W cartridge was never as good for knocking over a running Indian pony.” None the less, by the late 1880s, the Schofield was the only .45 revolver cartridge being produced for US Army issue. By then, it had gained a reputation as a reliable man-stopper, in the hands of gunmen such as Bill Cody, both the James and Younger gangs, John Wesley Hardin, Pat Garret, and Virgil Earp, among others. In 1902, Colt Single Actions and Schofield ammunition would be sent to the Philippines as a stopgap, after noted failures of the .38 Long Colt, until adoption of Colt’s .45 Double Action Revolver Model of 1909.

"Hatcher’s Textbook of Pistols and Revolvers (1935) stated that the .45 Schofield cartridge was loaded with 28 grains of black powder and a 230 grain flat-nosed bullet, producing a muzzle velocity of 730 f.p.s. The performance expected of production ammunition was a mean absolute deviation of 5 inches, with 4 inches of penetration in soft pine, at 50-yards, the range at which Army revolvers were sighted. This standard of accuracy and penetration still represents a useful benchmark to assess what an adequate “service revolver” should do.

The popularity of Cowboy Action Shooting has revived interest in the Schofield cartridge. This is because mild, low-velocity loads are best suited for this sport. Getting acceptable ballistic uniformity when firing bullets of 230 grains or lighter, at velocities less than 700 fps, is challenging, when loading dense, fast-burning, modern smokeless powders in the full-length (1.285”) Colt .45 case, because it was originally designed for black powder and has excessive airspace. Cowboy shooters say that the shorter (1.109”) Schofield case is better for light loads, but they fire short-range events, which don’t require high levels of either power or accuracy.

Schofield load data in popular manuals are for mild “Cowboy Action” loads, rather than being at “full charge” levels required of hunting or service ammunition. I fired velocity tests with Alliant Bullseye powder and the Saeco Cowboy bullets, comparing them in a Colt M1909 with 5-1/2” barrel, and Ruger New Model Blackhawk with 4-5/8” barrel. Despite better steel, modern reproductions of the S&W No. 3 revolver probably should not be used with loads exceeding about 700 fps. My old school buddy Dave, in Alaska, tells me his No. 3 clone “pops open after every round of factory .45 Colt ammo including factory Cowboy loads.” While Schofield’s No. 3 was a great idea for its time, its value today is rooted in its nostalgia, not practical functionality.

Modern smokeless-frame Gen2 Colt Single-Actions, their clones and the Colt New Service, in sound condition, can handle up to 900 fps with 260-gr. lead bullets or 1000 fps with the lead 230-grainers. Medium-frame Ruger Flat Tops and Vaqueros are strong enough for use with a steady diet of 1000 fps loads with 260-gr. lead bullets, but are NOT recommended for use with so-called “Ruger Only” loads intended for revolvers on the Super Blackhawk frame and the T/C Contenders, which approach or exceed 1100 fps and 25,000 psi. with 250+ grain bullets..."

For most of my testing I used the Saeco #954. This traditional ogival-nosed, 230-grain flat-point resembles the original Schofield service bullet and is one with which I have a lot of experience. It is my favorite bullet for use in both the .45 Colt and the .45 ACP in revolvers, rifles and auto pistols. If I were limited to one bullet to use in all of my .45s this one would be “it.”

Only limited tests were fired with the Saeco #955. This 260-grain bullet has the same profile as the 230-grain #954, differing only in width of its base band. I found it less accurate, and simply used up my remaining rounds and loose bullets, because I no longer own that mold.

Revolver accuracy tests were fired at 25 yards, hand-held, off sandbags. A few .45 Colt loads previously tested in my H&R CR45LC carbine with iron sights at 50 yards are included. Testing Saeco #954 bullets sized to different diameters in the H&R’s .452” groove diameter with .457” diameter ball seat did not improve accuracy compared to firing as-cast bullets at .455”.

I do not use specialized “carbine” loads in .45 Colt, because doing so defeats my intended purpose for owning the .45 Colt rifle in the first place, to use the same ammunition in it AND my revolver. It was not possible to test Schofield loads in the H&R, because their larger case rim diameter of 0.520” vs. 0.512” precludes them from chambering in the rifle. A negative for me!

Cylinder throat diameters of the Colt New Service revolver measure .455.” As-cast Saeco bullets fit them optimally without sizing. The accuracy results obtained, despite its tiny fixed sights, which are difficult to see well, reflect this. The tighter cylinder gap of the 4-5/8” Ruger revolver (0.006”) produced somewhat higher velocities than the Colt New Service, which has a 5-1/2” barrel, but with a .008” cylinder gap, fairly typical of revolvers made before WW1.

Firing .45 Colt ammunition loaded with unsized .455 bullets in the Ruger, increased group size from 2” or less at 25 yards firing bullets, sized to .452” to fit its cylinder throats, to 2-1/2” or more for groups shot with as-cast and unsized bullets. While not enough to impair utility for field shooting, resizing bullets to fit the cylinder throats improves accuracy of .45 Colt ammunition.

When loading ammunition in Schofield brass and crimping bullets in the crimp groove, at 1.40” OAL, sizing bullets to cylinder throat diameter was of no benefit. But when seating bullets out in Schofield brass, and crimping instead in the lubricating groove, at 1.55” overall length, grouping improved when bullets were properly sized to fit the cylinder throats. Best accuracy was obtained in the Ruger revolver when bullets were resized from their as-cast diameter of .455 down to .452” in a Lee push-through sizing die. While sizing as much as 0.003” is not ideal, test results clearly illustrate the importance of sizing bullets to fit the cylinder throats, rather than to barrel groove diameter (which was .4505” in the Ruger vs. .453” for the Colt). Further improvement may be possible in Ruger revolvers using bullets from a mold which casts smaller.

It is best that molds drop bullets at correct diameter, so as to not require sizing at all. Sizing bullets to .454” to attempt a compromise diameter fit for use in both revolvers was of no benefit, compared to firing loading bullets as-cast and unsized. Cylinder leading severe enough to cause resistance to chambering .45 Colt ammunition was noted after firing 100 or more Schofield loads. Seating bullets out in Schofield brass to an overall cartridge length of 1.55” improved accuracy, but did not mitigate chamber leading, a negative aspect for me! Removal of these lead deposits required VIGOROUS scrubbing with Kano Kroil on a .410 shotgun brush.

If One-Inch-Per-Ten (Yards) revolver accuracy is important, the Schofield is less accurate than .45 Colt ammunition assembled with the same bullet, at all velocity levels tested. Bullseye powder gives quite acceptable ballistic uniformity and accuracy in .45 Colt brass, even with reduced charges down to 700 fps with 230-grain bullets. The advantages of Schofield brass are in being able to visually identify low-recoil plinking loads, and for nostalgia. Schofield loads do provide adequate accuracy for close range plinking targets, but are best reserved for that purpose. The .45 Colt is still best for any serious use where power and accuracy are important.

Firing data below for bullets cast of COWW, tumbled in Lee Liquid Alox, loaded as-cast and unsized, in Starline .45 Colt cases with Remington 2-1/2 primers, OAL 1.59"


Colt New Service M1909 5-1/2" .45 Colt
Cylinder Gap 0.008", Cylinder throats .456",
bullets shot as-cast, unsized .455" Lee Liquid Alox

Saeco #954 230-grain FN 5x5 shot groups 25 yds.
Avg.
5.5 Bullseye 754, 20 Sd 3.16
6.0 Bullseye 864, 22 Sd 2.63
6.5 Bullseye 903, 8 Sd 2.19
7.2 Bullseye 967, 19 Sd 2.24

Saeco #955 255-grain FN
5.5 Bullseye 706, 23 Sd 3.11
6.0 Bullseye 823, 33 Sd 2.2
6.5 Bullseye 880, 18 Sd 2.08
7.2 Bullseye 933, 15 Sd 2.6

H&R .45 Colt 20" Carbine
Saeco #954 230-grain FN				5x5 shot groups 50 yds.
				Avg.
6.0 Bullseye		971 fps, 48 Sd		2.18
6.5 Bullseye		1125, 8 Sd		1.63
7.2 Bullseye		1184, 4 Sd		2.24
Saeco #955 255-grain FN
				Avg
6.0 Bullseye		862, 42 Sd		3.11
6.5 Bullseye		1093, 7 Sd		2.08
7.2 Bullseye		1149, 9 Sd		2.6